Racing the FL5 Type R with all OEM spec parts on Laguna Seca

[johnloov]

Found this very interesting test on Motor Oil for the FL5.. and didn't know you can set temp warning limits, which is great.

They tested the Honda OEM oil 0-20 vs 0-20 Motul Fully Synthetic ( which is the second highest quality oil Motul makes according to him) and the Motul 0-20 had more friction according to him.

The Mugen 5-30 was better. Very interesting results.

See below.

How much worse/or better is it that most all these oils were much higher in oil pressure, including the Motul 0-20?

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[johnloov]

I can confirm that a half turn on each tire rod, to give the car toe out helped out a lot!

This is probably the best OEM Stock modification in combination with removing the pins for a touch more negative camber.

Will find out tomorrow on Laguna Seca

Also it's still debatable what engine oil is best:

Some have tested all kinds of oils and the Type 2.0 0W20 Honda oil OEM oil didn't have any issues on heavy track use. Some are saying the 0-20 stays cooler, circulating faster through the engine.
Would be great to get some conclusive scientific data on this.

 

[spectre186]

Brake vectoring is on until you pedal dance. Even +R with long hold won’t shut it off.

 

[johnloov]

Brake vectoring is on until you pedal dance. Even +R with long hold won’t shut it off.

Here is what we learned about the Stock FL5 Type R on Laguna Seca on 4s's:

1) Remove the Pins and Adjust toe out! The car was 8+ seconds faster 1.51 ( pins out & toe out ) vs a 1.59 ( factory ).

On average it was ~5 seconds faster. It was a clear difference. It just turned in much easier.

ps... anyone know what this means, when both circles are bright red - is that the torque vectoring kicking in at max?

Here is the lap footage - I had really one session that was traffic free at the end of the day, which helped me get the 1.51



2) Tire pressures - Spoke to many instructors and there was a tire specialist on track, and he recommended I actually move up in PSI for the 4s.

So I moved up to 45 it was too high, and down to - 42 PSI hot tire pressure fronting 40 rear, which seamed to perform best. Easily got the 1.51 1.52 . You don't want to deform the tire wall on a soft side wall tire.

Checked after 24 hours, that's translated to 34.5 PSI cold front and 34.4PSI cold rear. Front tires seem to get about 2psi hotter than rears on the track.

2) Turning on the heater while driving did help me get down from a max 278F Oil to 275F - Maybe it helps a tad

3) Switched to Castrol SRF - A must - Felt a bit better all day relative to OEM.

4) Tire Wear - The tire pro that was there, he said, the tire wear was actually very good. He remember the Fk8's chewing the outer tire. He also mentioned, it's important how you drive it. I've been trying to take the best lines, and keep it smooth

Personally I did notice the pins out and toe out really helped the the car feel less stressed to turn in.

4) Seat Position - Usually on my daily driving I like to drive seat at close to max height to get a better line of sight... at track when I moved my seat to the lowest position, the car felt really improved. I could understand what the car was doing. I tried this at the end of the day, and that helped me get my fastest lap - also there was less traffic. Really made a difference on how you feel the car in the turns.

Questions:

1) Does anyone know what the Laguna Seca Lap record for a Stock FL5 Type R on OEM 4s's

I think I heard, with the OEM 4s 1.47 for Laguna Seca? ( I'm 4 seconds away ? )

And Randy Pro Driver on the Fk8 with Cup 2's did a 1.44?

2) Does anyone know what this is?

It was melted onto the inner rear wheel mostly, some glued to the wheel weights. Felt my tires were out of balance, but it was this + all the extra rubber I picked up on track.

Is that the brake pads that melted do to hard brake vectoring on Laguna Seca?

3) Has anyone removed the rain guard to allow more air to get into engine - any data to see if it helps keep engine oil temps down on track?

After ever track session, I pulled the engine hood open, and drove for 10 minutes until temps came down to 200F



Pics below:

What's next?

We will try a quarter turn more Toe out, and maybe rotate the rear tires to the front, and see if we can get to the 1.47-1.49's on stock tires and pads.

 

[Gansan]

I 100% don't think camber and toe out would make 5 seconds difference. The difference is much more likely to be in large part your driving and other factors.

The clumps of rubber are called "marbles" and they're the eraser crumb-like rolls of rubber that are shed from the tires of all the cars at the track. All that worn out tread has to go somewhere. You should walk a track after an F1 race. Marbles everywhere.

 

[johnloov]

I 100% don't think camber and toe out would make 5 seconds difference. The difference is much more likely to be in large part your driving and other factors.

The clumps of rubber are called "marbles" and they're the eraser crumb-like rolls of rubber that are shed from the tires of all the cars at the track. All that worn out tread has to go somewhere. You should walk a track after an F1 race. Marbles everywhere.

You could be partly right, but for sure it made a very noticeable difference in both canyon driving and on track instantly I was able to turn in easier, with less stress on tires. I was instantly running faster times, and could feel the tires under less stress in turns. A race alignment is proven to work and improve times. Highly recommend. I’m 100% positive it helped. I’m sure also the brake fluids gave me more confidence also to brake harder.

I’ve recommended it to a friend who is plowing more with 0 toe on Laguna and we will find out how it works for him.

It is absolutely measured fact though, if you take the stock factory alignment and pull the camber pins, you’ve moved to toe in, and that for sure made it harder to turn in, so yes you would need to for sure get back to zero or positive toe out to perform well.

 

[Gansan]

You could be partly right, but for sure it made a very noticeable difference in both canyon driving and on track instantly I was able to turn in easier, with less stress on tires. I was instantly running faster times, and could feel the tires under less stress in turns. A race alignment is proven to work and improve times. Highly recommend. I’m 100% positive it helped. I’m sure also the brake fluids gave me more confidence also to brake harder.

I’ve recommended it to a friend who is plowing more with 0 toe on Laguna and we will find out how it works for him.

It is absolutely measured fact though, if you take the stock factory alignment and pull the camber pins, you’ve moved to toe in, and that for sure made it harder to turn in, so yes you would need to for sure get back to zero or positive toe out to perform well.

I believe you that it helped. Note that I said it won't make 5 seconds difference, not that it didn't help.

Toe out has the function of putting the suspension in tension so that there's no slack when you initiate a turn. It makes the car more reactive but in terms of steady state cornering speed, it's little to no gain. The outside front tire is still taking most of the cornering load, and the inside tire very little since most all the weight has moved over to the outside. Any difference in steering angle between the two tires will have little effect at that point.

Camber definitely helps optimize the tire grip, but again, we're talking about incremental improvement. The stock alignment already has a little bit of negative camber, so you're talking about going from -1.5 to -2+ degrees or so. Believe me, if just a degree of camber made five seconds of lap time improvement, that would be celebrated as the most amazing thing ever.

Switching subjects, I do have a question about how the LogR overlay works. I noticed in your footage that the lap timer that's centered on the screen seems to reset to around 5 seconds rather than zero when you start the next lap. Do you know why that happens?

 

[johnloov]

Good question, let me check into

 

[johnloov]

Quick up date, I did finally hit 1.47 and was on my way to a 1.45 twice - but hit traffic and spun it the other time - this car will do a 1.44-1.45 with a pro driver easy if not better - on Laguna Seca on the stock car, stock tires, stock brake pads, camber pins out and 5mm toe out with pedal dance, all traction controls off.

The only non OEM mod was Castrol SRF brake fluid, which is a MUST requirement on this car.

The good news is, yes I did feel that the toe out really help turn the car in easier vs zero toe, and .5 toe out total .

The bad news is, yes, the penalty for a lot of toe out in the front is I did cook my front inner tires.

I did also test using Nitrogen in the tires, and that did help, but you have to really cycle nitrogen maybe 5-10 times, deflate, inflate, over and over again to ensure you get as much of the humidity/water and get as close to pure nitrogen. This did stabilize my laps and I was able to get more laps without the psi going to 42 starting from 35 cold.

I also marked the PS4 side walls, and it seems if you go below 38-39psi, you start to really roll over the tire. It's a balance of having a soft side wall, and then having PSI to compensate for that tire side wall to remain stiff, and not come off the rim as many have experienced running lower psi 32-35.

Will dial back the toe out to 1-2MM and see how the tires do, and looks like I may have to start to long press type R traction control off, vs. full off, to help the car turn in. Someone else recommended 1MM max total out on the toe out - and it looks like that is looking like it's pretty good advice. I'll try that next.

 

[J1Avs]

Pro will do better than a 44 at Laguna...

Also -- claiming that you are capable of matching a pro's pace is a pretty bold claim....

 

[johnloov]

What's the fastest Pro lap time you've found on Laguna Seca?

 

[johnloov]

Pro will do better than a 44 at Laguna...

Also -- claiming that you are capable of matching a pro's pace is a pretty bold claim....

Hi @J1Avs what is the fastest "Pro" time on the stock FL5 you have evidence for on Laguna Seca?

It would be great if you provide real data and evidence, vs. constant criticism. Right?

I'm seeing 1.41-1.42 with heavily modified suspension, bushings, aero, brakes, stock tunes.

@J1Avs What lap records are you seeing on a stock FL5 or even FK8 for Laguna Seca on stock Ps4's

Thanks,

John

Here is Randy Posbst - American race car driver and journalist for Motor Trend magazine
I'm not sure if he was on PS4's or Cup 2 - need validate

 

[J1Avs]

Hi @J1Avs what is the fastest "Pro" time on the stock FL5 you have evidence for on Laguna Seca?

It would be great if you provide real data and evidence, vs. constant criticism. Right?

I'm seeing 1.41-1.42 with heavily modified suspension, bushings, aero, brakes, stock tunes.

@J1Avs What lap records are you seeing on a stock FL5 or even FK8 for Laguna Seca on stock Ps4's

Thanks,

John

Pro Driver in a Elantra N did a 1:44.1 in a fully stock car. FL5 is consistently faster than the EN.

I have provided plenty of real data

 

[johnloov]

@J1Avs That's not the same car - I provided real evidence.
You provide a headache mostly -- But do appreciate the candid responses. We even learn from critics.
I'm looking for data only - apples to apples.

You can see an Elantra's doing high 1.44's and and only Randy - Pro driver doing high 1.44's in an FK8- and one guy on an integra type S - touched a high 1.44 then - flew off track. Not repeatable. Difficult to due a fast lap in with the 1.44s before performance drops and the window to achieve a 1.44-1.45 is very very narrow. His tire came off. If you want to run a faster time, lower tire pressure, then you run the risk of the tire rolling over. Higher pressure 38-39 then you're going slower. Very very difficult to achieve a 1.44 consistently stock car stock tires, even for a pro.


I haven't found any stock FL5 Type R's or Fk8s' breaking the 1.44. And if I'm approaching 1.45.. that's pretty close to the only Pro driver - Randy Pobst - we have data and evidence on - and I still don't know if he was on 4s or cup 2's

Also - need to factor in my car is ~100lbs heavier than stock - It seems I have maybe the world's most sound deadened Type R FL5, floors all dampened sound proofed and doors trunk.

I do think we are approaching the limit of the stock FL5 on Laguna Seca according to the data.

Here is my friend who is just broke into the 1.41 with many many mods( twin oil coolers, heavy suspension, brakes, bushings, -4 negative camber, engine mounts, etc.. running AHA long press, and as soon as I got into the car ( extra (220lbs), on the same day he broke into the 1.41's -- into some laps he was consistently slower he ran almost 2 seconds+ slower. with me in the car.. He could feel the extra weight.

Data Data Data
Red pill the noise

 

[J1Avs]

@J1Avs That's not the same car - I provided real evidence.
You provide a headache mostly -- But do appreciate the candid responses. We even learn from critics.
I'm looking for data only - apples to apples.

You can see an Elantra's doing high 1.44's and and only Randy - Pro driver doing high 1.44's in an FK8- and one guy on an integra type S - touched a high 1.44 then - flew off track. Not repeatable. Difficult to a fast lap in with the 4s before performance drops and the window to achieve a 1.44-1.45 is very narrow.


I haven't found any stock FL5 Type R's or Fk8s' breaking the 1.44. And if I'm approaching 1.45.. that's pretty close to the only Pro driver - Randy Pobst - we have data and evidence on - and I still don't know if he was on 4s or cup 2's

Also - need to factor in my car is ~100lbs heavier than stock - It seems I have maybe the world's most sound deadened Type R FL5, floors all dampened sound proofed and doors trunk.

I do think we are approaching the limit of the stock FL5 on Laguna Seca according to the data.

Here is my friend who is just broke into the 1.41 with many many mods( twin oil coolers, heavy suspension, brakes, bushings, -4 negative camber, engine mounts, etc.. running AHA long press, and as soon as I got into the car ( extra (220lbs), on the same day he broke into the 1.41's -- into some laps he was consistently slower he ran almost 2 seconds+ slower. with me in the car.. He could feel the extra weight.

Data Data Data
Red pill the noise

Keep claiming "data, data, data" but using LogR for lap times and claiming pro-driver pace.

FK8 and FL5 is also not same car. You also rarely see pro's drive stock cars, so the evidence you are looking for, doesn't really exist.

As long as you are having fun.

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