Racing the FL5 Type R with all OEM spec parts on Laguna Seca

[savagegeese]

I will tell you first hand DO NOT F*** around with the stock brake fluid on track. We just did our Elantra N vs CTR video and after 5 laps, pedal went softer, within two more corners pedal went to floor and there was just enough brake power to slow down from 25MPH.

Swap it to whatever, Motul, Endless, Castrol etc its not rocket science, don't overthink it. Just dont crash.

I attached factory service manual alignment tables. Every car leaves factory with some margin for error. Some cars have almost no front camber. Others can have -1.
Pulling strut pins can give you almost -1 for free so just do it if you are tracking. Main thing is make sure your corner to corner variences are equal. Enjoy

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[johnloov]

Thanks man, curious when you did cook the brakes

I will tell you first hand DO NOT F*** around with the stock brake fluid on track. We just did our Elantra N vs CTR video and after 5 laps, pedal went softer, within two more corners pedal went to floor and there was just enough brake power to slow down from 25MPH.

Swap it to whatever, Motul, Endless, Castrol etc its not rocket science, don't overthink it. Just dont crash.

I attached factory service manual alignment tables. Every car leaves factory with some margin for error. Some cars have almost no front camber. Others can have -1.
Pulling strut pins can give you almost -1 for free so just do it if you are tracking. Main thing is make sure your corner to corner variences are equal. Enjoy

Thanks Man!

Very curious, when you did cook the brakes on the Type R, were you flat out, utilizing the full 10-14psi max of brake pressure. Or was was it a build up of heat transferring through the brake into the lines, that cooked it over time?

I'm very interested to know, what is the threshold at which the stock FL5 brakes with OEM brake fluid boil.

--
I ran some conservative laps ~1.58s at Laguna Seca where I braked early and shed speed before corner entry, and then I did push it in the turns finding the limits. My brakes feel still brand new, and not soft. I probably was using 6-9 psi max of brake pressure.

I know a lot of the Miata drivers and FL5 owners are mashing the brakes all the way down, threshold braking, and getting their fastest laps this way. Which was not my goal.

I do appreciate the recommendation to change the fluids to higher temps, which seems like a must for safety -- but still curious, how much of driving/braking style, translates to the brakes cooking. What exact behavior hits the threshold of the stock FL5 brakes to boil. 10-14/14 psi brake pressure, sustained lap after lap?

PS.. trust me I played it safe after watching this guy take a m4 Rental fresh from SFO airport, taking it to the track... threshold brake... lost the brakes... and flipped the car...

 

[savagegeese]

Thanks man, curious when you did cook the brakes


Thanks Man!

Very curious, when you did cook the brakes on the Type R, were you flat out, utilizing the full 10-14psi max of brake pressure. Or was was it a build up of heat transferring through the brake into the lines, that cooked it over time?

I'm very interested to know, what is the threshold at which the stock FL5 brakes with OEM brake fluid boil.

--
I ran some conservative laps ~1.58s at Laguna Seca where I braked early and shed speed before corner entry, and then I did push it in the turns finding the limits. My brakes feel still brand new, and not soft. I probably was using 6-9 psi max of brake pressure.

I know a lot of the Miata drivers and FL5 owners are mashing the brakes all the way down, threshold braking, and getting their fastest laps this way. Which was not my goal.

I do appreciate the recommendation to change the fluids to higher temps, which seems like a must for safety -- but still curious, how much of driving/braking style, translates to the brakes cooking. What exact behavior hits the threshold of the stock FL5 brakes to boil. 10-14/14 psi brake pressure, sustained lap after lap?

PS.. trust me I played it safe after watching this guy take a m4 Rental fresh from SFO airport, taking it to the track... threshold brake... lost the brakes... and flipped the car...

Its going to depend on the track and how much air/moisture gets in system. Great example is after boiling fluid, pedal will come back, feel firmish after fluid cools. But the next time you get heat in system, threshold for boiling will be lower. So you may have gotten 10 laps now pedal is getting soft at 5.

In terms of my driving it was flat out. Keep in mind the magic of nimbleness of type r is brake vectoring. System is always grabbing rear to rotate car. Its hard on brakes. So just start with a resilant fluid and you wont have to deal with it.

 

[johnloov]

Its going to depend on the track and how much air/moisture gets in system. Great example is after boiling fluid, pedal will come back, feel firmish after fluid cools. But the next time you get heat in system, threshold for boiling will be lower. So you may have gotten 10 laps now pedal is getting soft at 5.

In terms of my driving it was flat out. Keep in mind the magic of nimbleness of type r is brake vectoring. System is always grabbing rear to rotate car. Its hard on brakes. So just start with a resilant fluid and you wont have to deal with it.

Great so this is settled on OEM brakes - They need high temp fluids - A must for safety.

1) Stock Brake Fluids, will boil quick, and can be deadly.

Follow up brake question:

How many track days/lap days before you know the Castrol SRF Synthetic Racing Brake Fluid is cooked or should be replaced?

What are the leading indicators it also needs to be replaced?

2) Stock Alignment removing the pins, does induce a touch of Toe in. And it seems Zero Toe or a touch positive Toe is the best setup for the Stock FL5Type R. Someone else recommended a quarter turn on the front tire rods to get it back to zero, which I will experiment with, and slight toe out maybe 1/2 turn total on both sides.

My Alfa 4c was a handful, with the race 3 stock setup which had toe out, and then I set the fronts to Zero, which made it more livable and stable under hard braking.

Community.

Does anyone have some before and after lap times on a stock FL5 on Laguna Seca - same driver?

1) Stock Factory Fresh Suspension Pilot 4s

2) Stock Factory Fresh Suspension Pilot 4s - Pins out

3) Stock Factory Fresh Suspension Pilot 4s - Pins out Toe 0

4) Stock Factory Fresh Suspension Pilot 4s - Toe out

He's recommending below on a FWD car - between 1/8th inch and 3/8th inch Toe out, and after that it's diminishing returns, and he's gone as far as 1/2 inch Toe out.

Also on minus camber. This is relative to the sidewall size, low profile, and strength. If you have a strong side wall, or low profile tire. minus 1.8 is enough, and if you're running the smaller wheel sizes, and bigger side walls you'll need -3-4 degrees.

My assumption is the OE rated Cup 2's, pins out, with zero toe, or a touch of toe out, Honda must have gotten an ideal configuration to run those times at the nurburgring. Would like to replicate that.




Feedback much appreciated.

 

[MooMoo]

No one is going to be able to tell you exactly how long SRF will last, it depends on a million factors. I can tell you I have done 10 track days on SRF and was fine but I am an intermediate driver, could probably double that and be fine. SRF lasts about a year, recommended to flush every year which is one of the positives of it vs motul.

 

[savagegeese]

No one is going to be able to tell you exactly how long SRF will last, it depends on a million factors. I can tell you I have done 10 track days on SRF and was fine but I am an intermediate driver, could probably double that and be fine. SRF lasts about a year, recommended to flush every year which is one of the positives of it vs motul.

I'd agree, its not so much about time as it is feel. SRF may work 5 track days it may last two depending on car. Brake fluid like oil is a consumable. With SRF you may get a slightly soft pedal but it typically won't fall off to the point you lose brakes. However if you are feeling that soft pedal become 50% of your travel back off. Bleed them before you go out again.

Personally, from experience if I have 3 track days with a firm pedal and number 4 it starts to get softer, Im bleeding the brakes. If you plan on doing a big day or track like COTA OR Road America, bleed them before.

 

[johnloov]

Excellent Fellas and Gals. Now let's get into Engine Oil.

We've covered Brake Fluids, we've touched on Stock suspension toe, and now let's move onto motor oil.

I'm an ~intermediate occasional track driver, mostly a canyon carver.

Honda mechanics only recommend using stock oil.

We do know if you go thicker, then it does change oil pressure. My understanding is also all 0-20w are not created equal, and Honda must have done some serious testing. Fk8's with over 200,000 miles, all OEM oil changes, no issues. My understanding is when you go thicker, then it takes a bit longer in the morning to get up to temp, before you can hammer it also.

Does the Honda 0-20W have faster viscosity break down than a non-Honda OEM oil like a 5-30W. Is there any scientific proof of this?

The designer of the Nissan GTR engine said, something like -- it doesn't matter - what viscosity or oil that much, as long as you change the OEM oil every 3000 miles - it's what he likes to do. He said he prefers castrol engine oil, and it's better to buy the cheapest oil and change more often, then to buy the more expensive oil and change less often - Remove the contaminants and reduce degredation of the oil.

So that's the question. If I change the stock Honda 0-20W every 3000 miles, and it works as the manufacturer intended. Will I be as good as using a 5-30 untested by the OEM?

FL5 Stock Oil:

1) How will it hold up on Track. Is it possible to only use this OEM fluid and change it out more often? Who actually makes it?

2) What's the downsides to thicker 5-30 oil. Does it take longer to heat up and achieve similar viscosity?

3) Who makes the absolute best oil

4) How often to change the oil.

Feedback appreciated



Some people are saying thicker oil through smaller oil galleries causes more problems.









He's recommending exactly what the OEM recommends

 

[J1Avs]

This thread is weird....

All of this is written out elsewhere, and you are WAY over thinking just about everything...

 

[johnloov]

This thread is weird....

All of this is written out elsewhere, and you are WAY over thinking just about everything...

Please send the link to the FL5 Oil 0-20W Honda Spec vs others. Thanks - Ideally one that has lab testing.

"It's generally not recommended to deviate from the oil viscosity grade recommended in your vehicle's manual. The recommended oil viscosity grade, such as 0W-20, is chosen by the manufacturer to ensure optimal engine performance and longevity under various operating conditions.

While using 5W-30 oil instead of 0W-20 may not cause immediate harm to your engine, it can affect fuel economy, engine efficiency, and potentially lead to increased wear over time. The lower viscosity oil (0W-20) typically provides better fuel economy and lubrication during cold starts, which is crucial for many modern engines."

I'll be adjusting slight toe out in the front, then heading to Laguna Seca to test soon.

 

[J1Avs]

Please send the link to the FL5 Oil 0-20W Honda Spec vs others. Thanks - Ideally one that has lab testing.

"It's generally not recommended to deviate from the oil viscosity grade recommended in your vehicle's manual. The recommended oil viscosity grade, such as 0W-20, is chosen by the manufacturer to ensure optimal engine performance and longevity under various operating conditions.

While using 5W-30 oil instead of 0W-20 may not cause immediate harm to your engine, it can affect fuel economy, engine efficiency, and potentially lead to increased wear over time. The lower viscosity oil (0W-20) typically provides better fuel economy and lubrication during cold starts, which is crucial for many modern engines."

I'll be adjusting slight toe out in the front, then heading to Laguna Seca to test soon.

I'm not sending any links. Use the search functions.

This is a lot of over thinking to run a 1:58 at Laguna....just drive the car and stop overthinking it.

 

[johnloov]

I'm not sending any links. Use the search functions.

This is a lot of over thinking to run a 1:58 at Laguna....just drive the car and stop overthinking it.

I'm not sending any links. Use the search functions.

This is a lot of over thinking to run a 1:58 at Laguna....just drive the car and stop overthinking it.

Thank you he/him/she/they/them, that was very helpful advice.

 

[J1Avs]

Thank you he/him/she/they/them, that was very helpful advice.

Glad I was able to help you find the search bar. It's so we don't keep having the same conversations about the same basic things every day.

When you are ready to do more than parade lap pace at the track, we can have some more serious conversations about setup -- not what oil to use and what minimal alignment change will make the parade lap better.

 

[johnloov]

On camber, and removing the pins - it does toe in - great advice from this gentlemen. He is right, when you remove the pins you need to turn toe out a quarter turn on the tire rods to get back to zero.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/members/tezzasaurusrex.41293/

I was able to turn toe out quarter turn and it was perfect to get the car to zero toe. I taped and marked the quarter turns. Worked excellent. Thank you. Now I can dial another quarter for toe out, or even a half turn and always return back to oem spec without going to the alignment shop. This will be fun to experiment with.

https://www.civicxi.com/forum/threads/fl5-front-camber-strut-pin-removal.51857/page-2#post-908832

 

[MadMage]

What brake fluid are you guys running?

Motul RBF 700. Before that Project Mu G-Four

Curious, when you boiled your fluids last time, were you pressing them all the way down to max 14 PSI, or will you boil the brakes even at half the pressure. I'm noticing I never hit max PSI in my laps at Laguna Seca.

Is there a way to test, easily the condition of my brake fluid with a brake fluid water tester?

It's not pressure it's temperature. And you will boil the fluid on corner X, but not know about it until you get to corner X+1.

Still need help with recommendations on the RACE Alignment on STOCK FL5 Suspension with pins removed.

There is no one answer. Different drivers will want different settings based on lost of things. Tires, ambient temperature, rubber on track, and all sorts of driver preferences.

Run stock settings. You will not be faster with different settings. Not until you have 20+ days of track times and you can run consistent laps time again and again. Like a 1 second variable between your best and worst laps.

Get seat time, that is the best thing you can do to your car to get faster and safer.

 

[johnloov]

Many thanks, and appreciate the finer details - as an engineer - details matter - great advice, especially on safety. I hope this thread serves as a good intro to the stock Type R for beginners/intermediates, and track lessons learned to stay safe while running as close to OEM as possible.

Will upgrade the brake fluids immediately. I have read a lot on the engine oils, and many still say to keep the original engine oil for first ~3k miles because it has some special break in additives.

My goal is to have fun, slowly build up speed to find the limits, and stay safe.

Will run on the stock tires, until they are finished, then probably move up to Cup2's on stock rims. This is not my daily.

I did run Type R mode with traction control last time, and focused on not cooking the brakes, but did focus on finding maximum entry and exit corner speeds with the factory setup. I can tell with harder braking I could have easily knocked off 5-8 seconds.

If I run Type R mode with traction control off, will it still use the brakes as much for vectoring? Or will I need to fully disable it via the pedal dance.

From what I read, there are three modes in +R

+R with traction control off - pressed once
+R with traction control off - long pressed
+R with traction control completely off - pedal dance.

Your experience with all modes and feedback is greatly appreciated.

Many thanks for the advice,

Kind regards,

John

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