Stock Front Camber and tire wear on track

[BigBird]

Yup! Honda even recommend every suspension bolt/but is replaced as they deem these to be one-use only. The chance of thread galling is high on these cast aluminium components so extra car should be taken. I've re-used hundreds of these so called one-use bolts in my time with no issue - although I would recommend if it was engine related that you'd follow the manual to the tee!

As for the Hardrace design - the recessed version is for sure the better design of the two.

are the Honda bolts Torque to Yield? Having previous VWs most of the bolts there are also one time use, TTY bolts

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[mmdct]

I ran the Kumho V730 tires this weekend at VIR

excellent tire for camber limited cars, good grip, wears like iron

what size kumho's? that tire is not available in 265/30ZR19.

 

[balucipher]

what size kumho's? that tire is not available in 265/30ZR19.

275/35/18 on 18x9.5 wheels

 

[BigBird]

The oscillations are occuring due to the damping rate being too agressive, and it is exasperated by the spring rates being on the soft side.

So the higher spring rates of the Spoon springs should help support the suspension stroke and reduce the oscillations. Running in comfort indeed does help tremendously - but doesn't completely resolve it.

have you gotten a chance to test the spoon springs on track yet?

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

have you gotten a chance to test the spoon springs on track yet?

I have. They do improve the performance by reducing the body roll - however the tendency for the chassis so bounce is still there. For me, theres something missing there and I think the best solution is to run coilovers.

 

[BigBird]

I have. They do improve the performance by reducing the body roll - however the tendency for the chassis so bounce is still there. For me, theres something missing there and I think the best solution is to run coilovers.

do you have a before/after lap times at the same track?

also are you running exclusively in +R mode, or pedal dance on a lower suspension setting?

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

do you have a before/after lap times at the same track?

also are you running exclusively in +R mode, or pedal dance on a lower suspension setting?

I do, but its not apples to apples comparison as I didn't have the hardrace ball joint giving me -2.7 front camber when I went out on stock springs.

I run exclusively in comfort with the pedal dance. Sport and +R mode are undriveable for me. The car bounces far too much in those modes.

 

[BigBird]

I do, but its not apples to apples comparison as I didn't have the hardrace ball joint giving me -2.7 front camber when I went out on stock springs.

I run exclusively in comfort with the pedal dance. Sport and +R mode are undriveable for me. The car bounces far too much in those modes.

was it at least faster the combo of springs and camber or negligible difference in lap times from stock?

Just trying to figure out how far down the rabbit hole I want to go here. thanks for all the info so far!

 

[tezzasaurusrex]

was it at least faster the combo of springs and camber or negligible difference in lap times from stock?

Just trying to figure out how far down the rabbit hole I want to go here. thanks for all the info so far!

So on stock suspension with the camber maxed from the strut top (-1.8) I did a 53.6 at Luddenham Raceway (quite a short circuit). On Spoon springs and hardrace ball joint running -2.7 on the same set of tyres I did a 51.9 so a solid 1.6 second improvement. I would attribute most of that gain from the increased front negative camber as it really made the front end bite - the data shows that I was pulling an avg 0.1G more at every corner on the new set up.

I would suggest getting the Hardrace ball joint and getting as much front camber as possible (based on how you use your car). This will net you the greatest gain in terms of extracting the maximum out of the tyres and also preserving their life.

 

[BigBird]

Like keller has mentioned, the stud of the ball joint is pinched by the control arm by a torx bolt. Once the torx bolt is undone it will slip out with relative ease.

The more challenging part is getting your head around how the whole dual axis assembly fits and how each part works and overlaps each other. I have to admit - I'm a seasoned mechanic with a lot of experience and even I was there for a good 15 minutes trying to work out how I was going to tackle the job, at some points I was thinking I was in over my head!

Firstly, the brake rotor must be removed. So that means removing the brake caliper too. You can do this without disconnecting the brake lines, just undo all the brackets that hold the brake lines and feed the caliper forward and place it on a box of some kind (as the lines are in such a way that you wont be able to place it on the ground). The philips head counter sunk bolt that secures the brake rotor to the hub can be challenging - as the brake rotor has moved in relation to the hub and is binding on the countersunk head from the forces applied during braking, this is evident when you observe the alignment of the brake rotor hub in relation to the wheel studs - the best way to tackle this is to rotate the brake rotor in the opposite direction of the braking force to recentralise their relationship. You do this by putting the wheel nuts back on the studs (to protect the studs) and a large screw driver inserted into the brake rotor fins, and elbow grease lol... Once you've done this you'll find that the countersunk bolt much easier to remove. MANY are stripping these philips heads and wind up having to drill it out (which isn't all that difficult tbh just an inconvenience) Alternatively, you may use the brake caliper as leverage (so perhaps best to tackle this countersunk bolt before you remove the caliper) but make sure you wrap it with a thick rag to protect the red paint.

Once the backing plate is moved out of the way (you won't be able to completely remove it as the hub face is too big) the rest is relatively straight forward - undo the 19mm bolts holding the ball joint to the knuckle, undo the two bolts (one long 17mm head bolt, the other a shorter 14mm head) holding the lower knuckle to the upper fork, then undo the torx bolt pinching the ball joint, and push the control arm down clear of the ball joint stud (best to undo the 12mm ride height sensor bracket bolt to allow full articulation of the control arm without over extending the height sensor). You should then be able to remove the factory ball joint with relative ease.
NB: Make sure you have a good quality torx head 3/8" socket set as this torx bolt is damn tight. Don't use an impact wrench here.

The ball joint 19mm bolts are 145NM, the Torx bolt is 83NM, the brake caliper bolts are 145NM. Remember you're working with a heap of cast aluminium parts, so avoid using the impact wrench. You'll be surprised at how loose all these bolts feel when you undo them...
Also, you can 100% do this job successfully without damaging anything. Just requires patience, proper tools for the job, and care. Whoever said it can't be done without damage is not being careful and patient enough!
Hopefully this helps you. Let me know if you have any questions.

This was fantastic! Couldn't have done it without it.

Took me like 3 hours on one side. Some trepidation working on a brand new car, and well didn't realize all the brake brackets because of the hard line to the caliper had some type of order to it. Second side was about 1.5 hours since I understood it. (i did have to drill out the screw on the rotor on this side too)

Again much appreciated!

So on stock suspension with the camber maxed from the strut top (-1.8) I did a 53.6 at Luddenham Raceway (quite a short circuit). On Spoon springs and hardrace ball joint running -2.7 on the same set of tyres I did a 51.9 so a solid 1.6 second improvement. I would attribute most of that gain from the increased front negative camber as it really made the front end bite - the data shows that I was pulling an avg 0.1G more at every corner on the new set up.

I would suggest getting the Hardrace ball joint and getting as much front camber as possible (based on how you use your car). This will net you the greatest gain in terms of extracting the maximum out of the tyres and also preserving their life.

Good to note. My springs are on the way, but it will be too late to install for my track day. The car is my daily, but I set the ball joints to max camber for now and left the strut pins in place. I'll see what that looks like camber wise hopefully tomorrow. But just taking it off the quickjack, and now I look like a stanceboi lol...

 

[BigBird]

So took the car for a spin, wow is the alignment off. Also heard a pop from the right side, rechecked everything and seems ok. when i take it for an alignment tomorrow, I'll take a deeper look at everything.

Also, the torque value for the 14mm bolt is 44 ft-lb

 

[BigBird]

Got the Alignment done, the toe was OFF after the install...>-3° toe out on each side. So make sure if you do the ball joints plan a alignment right after. Car was basically undrivable.

After resetting the toe, Strut Pins still in and Hardrace balljoints at max setting

Camber is now -3.6/-3.8

If the strut pin is pulled, I imagine it's possible to get almost -4 degress of camber in the front. I'll probably switch to the middle setting and pull the strut pin after my Time Attack next week since this is my daily. Definitely promising for the track only cars and stancebois.

 

[johnny.silva7]

Like keller has mentioned, the stud of the ball joint is pinched by the control arm by a torx bolt. Once the torx bolt is undone it will slip out with relative ease.

The more challenging part is getting your head around how the whole dual axis assembly fits and how each part works and overlaps each other. I have to admit - I'm a seasoned mechanic with a lot of experience and even I was there for a good 15 minutes trying to work out how I was going to tackle the job, at some points I was thinking I was in over my head!

Firstly, the brake rotor must be removed. So that means removing the brake caliper too. You can do this without disconnecting the brake lines, just undo all the brackets that hold the brake lines and feed the caliper forward and place it on a box of some kind (as the lines are in such a way that you wont be able to place it on the ground). The philips head counter sunk bolt that secures the brake rotor to the hub can be challenging - as the brake rotor has moved in relation to the hub and is binding on the countersunk head from the forces applied during braking, this is evident when you observe the alignment of the brake rotor hub in relation to the wheel studs - the best way to tackle this is to rotate the brake rotor in the opposite direction of the braking force to recentralise their relationship. You do this by putting the wheel nuts back on the studs (to protect the studs) and a large screw driver inserted into the brake rotor fins, and elbow grease lol... Once you've done this you'll find that the countersunk bolt much easier to remove. MANY are stripping these philips heads and wind up having to drill it out (which isn't all that difficult tbh just an inconvenience) Alternatively, you may use the brake caliper as leverage (so perhaps best to tackle this countersunk bolt before you remove the caliper) but make sure you wrap it with a thick rag to protect the red paint.

Once the backing plate is moved out of the way (you won't be able to completely remove it as the hub face is too big) the rest is relatively straight forward - undo the 19mm bolts holding the ball joint to the knuckle, undo the two bolts (one long 17mm head bolt, the other a shorter 14mm head) holding the lower knuckle to the upper fork, then undo the torx bolt pinching the ball joint, and push the control arm down clear of the ball joint stud (best to undo the 12mm ride height sensor bracket bolt to allow full articulation of the control arm without over extending the height sensor). You should then be able to remove the factory ball joint with relative ease.
NB: Make sure you have a good quality torx head 3/8" socket set as this torx bolt is damn tight. Don't use an impact wrench here.

The ball joint 19mm bolts are 145NM, the Torx bolt is 83NM, the brake caliper bolts are 145NM. Remember you're working with a heap of cast aluminium parts, so avoid using the impact wrench. You'll be surprised at how loose all these bolts feel when you undo them...
Also, you can 100% do this job successfully without damaging anything. Just requires patience, proper tools for the job, and care. Whoever said it can't be done without damage is not being careful and patient enough!
Hopefully this helps you. Let me know if you have any questions.

I wish I would've read this before installation. Lots of amazing tips here. Unfortunately, I used an impact only for removal. Luckily didn't have any issues putting everything back together.

I only removed the 19mm bolts and T50 Torx. I was able to pull the hub out, and upward to expose the ball joint. It had just enough clearance for removal and entry. Certainly requires a ton of patience.

Some tips for anybody planning to do this by themselves:

• Removing the rotor makes the job 10x easier if you don't have a 2-post lift.
• For the rotor screw removal, find an impact Phillips bit and use an impact drill to loosen. Lean your body against the drill to gain full contact. I found this to be extremely effective after chasing down a stripped rotor screw on the other side. I didn't have any luck with the Vessel Impact screw driver.
• Make sure you have alignment shop close to you. The car will essentially be undrivable after the install.

 

[BigBird]

Gears and Gasoline definitely went about it the wrong way. This thread is much better for sure.

 

[MooMoo]

I want to do this next year so I will be bookmarking this thread.

Just reading about the rotor removal though gives me the sweats, phillips is such a bad design but have also had hex strip on me so can't win, it will probably be a drag.

Edit: actually question for yall, are the whiteline the ones to get? Any difference btw those and other brands? I remember hearing of some wear on the little plates that lock the camber?

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