Direct comparison: Civic Type R vs. Integra Type S (Throttle House review)

[Noize]

Nah I agree with CK above, this is a true golden age.

There are some serious rose-colored glasses going on with the 90s cars. They weren't good! Sure they were amazing for the time, but compared to today, oh hell no.



But I shouldn't have to tell you what a MKIV Supra goes for these days. I know there are many factors that go into that, but you can't tell me nostalgia isn't the primary driver. But from a performance/driving dynamics perspective, it's not even competitive with an Infiniti Q50.let alone a MK V. No one talks about a Q50 being amazing... and it certainly wouldn't go for over $100k on BaT... body roll was horrendous, tire technology was LOL...



But for those who are, there are AMAZINGLY GREAT options.

Could you IMAGINE what a 2024 Integra Type S would represent if it cruised through a typical weekend night meetup of the late 90s, early 00s?? Let me remind you, mid 13s was a truly fast tuner car back then. But to get a 90s/00s car to carve up a back road or a track the way a CTR/ITS does would require severe compromise in driveability.

I think his issue was with this:

It feels like the 90s/early 2000s right now with all the options. There are as much, if not more, options for enthusiasts.

In the late ‘90s-early ‘00s, there were substantially more options.

-Evos/DSMs
-STI/WRX
-All motor and aftermarket boosted Honda Civics, RSX Type S, and Integras GSR and Type R
-Nissan 240/300/350
-Toyota MR2
-MkIV Supra
-FD RX7
-S2000
… I’m not even including the fun European stuff back then

The MkIV Supra was never a track star, and always viewed as a dyno queen or a Texas highway roll racer. To this day, the 2JZ is still hard to touch for output potential with stock intervals.

Mid 13s weren’t quick then, either. A 16G DSM could do 11s with ease, and Evos were replicating it with very basic mods inside a couple months of release.

Regarding handling, of course things have gotten somewhat better. But the biggest improvement we have seen by far has been in tire tech. And not only that, but also tire sizing.

Cars are faster stock now, but the early 2000s were the golden age for fast and fun import cars. These are unfortunately our twilight years for these types of ICE cars. Thankfully, we’re able to go out with a bang in some good ones.

Sponsored

 

[SKINNIE]

The MkIV Supra was never a track star, and always viewed as a dyno queen or a Texas highway roll racer. To this day, the 2JZ is still hard to touch for output potential with stock intervals.

The MK4 Supras were the "King of the Highway" back in the late 1990s & up to 2010s. Now here in TX, having 1000whp is normal lol. The 2jz is outdated now but still makes great power. The B58 is the new modern 2jz. Those things make stupid power for simple bolt ons + tune.

 

[TDC50]

Have to third what they say. Take any obtainable, factory spec 1990’s performance car and do a 20 minute track session and it will be limping off the track within 10 minutes. Today there are dozens of cars that are attainable and able to handle a 20 minute session like a champ. Truly the golden age of cars.
From a tuning perspective, maybe not so much but from a car from the factory, hell yeah.
Each time I pine for a car from my youth, I remind myself how inferior it is to a modern car from a performance and reliability perspective that I crush the thought of purchasing one from my mind.

 

[urbo73]

If you watch the video to the end, they did do a lap time and both cars had the exact same time down to the 100's of a second!

Which in itself is strange, wouldn't you think? I bet that's how they wanted it to be in the end. I don't actually care if the ITS was faster, but this way it makes for a better discussion and hits on their video!

 

[VarmintCong]

You're right, the leaderboard shows that they're the same at least when they drove it. Goes to show that the 5 extra hp and little differences was to make up for its heavier features. Amazing cars.

Everyone keeps saying 5 hp, that's like 1.6%, you'd never notice that. It's more likely the torque curve in the ITS is tuned for street rather than track, so the 0-60 time benefits. I'm sure the Japanese Type R engineers didn't give a damn about the car's 0-60 time.

 

[VarmintCong]

Have to third what they say. Take any obtainable, factory spec 1990’s performance car and do a 20 minute track session and it will be limping off the track within 10 minutes. Today there are dozens of cars that are attainable and able to handle a 20 minute session like a champ. Truly the golden age of cars.

I did 10 track days in the early 2000s, very rarely saw cars that couldn't do the 20 min session. Those that failed it was usually something mechanical, brakes etc.

I'd hate to take a 4000 lb car to the track. These days most of the "track cars" are well over 3500 lbs.

 

[TDC50]

I did 10 track days in the early 2000s, very rarely saw cars that couldn't do the 20 min session. Those that failed it was usually something mechanical, brakes etc.

I'd hate to take a 4000 lb car to the track. These days most of the "track cars" are well over 3500 lbs.

Not the 1990’s but here is some info from 2006 Lightning lap challenge. Not a 20 minute session but its an interesting read to reflect upon
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15389738/lightning-lap-2006/

 

[optronix]

I think his issue was with this:


In the late ‘90s-early ‘00s, there were substantially more options.

-Evos/DSMs
-STI/WRX
-All motor and aftermarket boosted Honda Civics, RSX Type S, and Integras GSR and Type R
-Nissan 240/300/350
-Toyota MR2
-MkIV Supra
-FD RX7
-S2000
… I’m not even including the fun European stuff back then

The MkIV Supra was never a track star, and always viewed as a dyno queen or a Texas highway roll racer. To this day, the 2JZ is still hard to touch for output potential with stock intervals.

Mid 13s weren’t quick then, either. A 16G DSM could do 11s with ease, and Evos were replicating it with very basic mods inside a couple months of release.

Regarding handling, of course things have gotten somewhat better. But the biggest improvement we have seen by far has been in tire tech. And not only that, but also tire sizing.

Cars are faster stock now, but the early 2000s were the golden age for fast and fun import cars. These are unfortunately our twilight years for these types of ICE cars. Thankfully, we’re able to go out with a bang in some good ones.

Mid 13s was still plenty quick back then. Thinking on it, it's kind of offensive to say 11s were "easy".

Maybe if you were one of the top 10 percent tuner nerds with deep pockets then 11s could be had "with ease". I was not one of them. Referencing a 16G implies a turbo swap at minimum, to get to 11s would need all the other fixins like FMIC, fuel pump, injectors, and some sort of tune. Also plenty in the bank account to set aside for broken driveshafts (or worse). That's big money to someone in their late teens or early 20s making $250 a week. Ask me how I know.

All I wanted in 2001 was an SR20DET for my 140,000 mile 1990 240SX. I could have gotten an S13 front clip for $3000. Bone stock SR20 in an S13 with a boost controller would have gotten me low 14s. And I would have been thrilled.

The ironic part is that you're hitting close to what absolutely did make the 90s/00s a golden age- and it was the popularity. There was such a higher volume of people interested in cars. The cars themselves were mostly trash unless you had shitloads of money to dump into mods, which I'd reckon most people posting on this board didn't have back then.

You pay for it one way or the other. Personally now that I'm more "comfortable", I'd rather just spend more on a car from the factory that's engineered better than I could ever do by throwing some KWs and some bolt-ons on it and risk blowing it up from a bad tank of gas.

 

[Clark_Kent]

Not the 1990’s but here is some info from 2006 Lightning lap challenge. Not a 20 minute session but its an interesting read to reflect upon
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15389738/lightning-lap-2006/

This is a good read, thanks for sharing. I really enjoy The Lightning Lap series. It has evolved so much since 2006!

 

[Noize]

Mid 13s was still plenty quick back then. Thinking on it, it's kind of offensive to say 11s were "easy".

Maybe if you were one of the top 10 percent tuner nerds with deep pockets then 11s could be had "with ease". I was not one of them. Referencing a 16G implies a turbo swap at minimum, to get to 11s would need all the other fixins like FMIC, fuel pump, injectors, and some sort of tune. Also plenty in the bank account to set aside for broken driveshafts (or worse). That's big money to someone in their late teens or early 20s making $250 a week. Ask me how I know.

All I wanted in 2001 was an SR20DET for my 140,000 mile 1990 240SX. I could have gotten an S13 front clip for $3000. Bone stock SR20 in an S13 with a boost controller would have gotten me low 14s. And I would have been thrilled.

The ironic part is that you're hitting close to what absolutely did make the 90s/00s a golden age- and it was the popularity. There was such a higher volume of people interested in cars. The cars themselves were mostly trash unless you had shitloads of money to dump into mods, which I'd reckon most people posting on this board didn't have back then.

You pay for it one way or the other. Personally now that I'm more "comfortable", I'd rather just spend more on a car from the factory that's engineered better than I could ever do by throwing some KWs and some bolt-ons on it and risk blowing it up from a bad tank of gas.

16G was stock in the Evo. The early 00s were without question much better than the 90s. DSMs took a ton of work comparatively to an Evo.

The Evo had power, handling, and braking on another planet compared to a DSM. On track especially. Back to drag racing, high 11s with a full exhaust and tune (and race gas) was all it took in an Evo.

The SR20 can’t compete with the 4G63 for easy, reliable power for sure.

 

[Tickle]

16G was stock in the Evo. The early 00s were without question much better than the 90s. DSMs took a ton of work comparatively to an Evo.

The Evo had power, handling, and braking on another planet compared to a DSM. On track especially. Back to drag racing, high 11s with a full exhaust and tune (and race gas) was all it took in an Evo.

The SR20 can’t compete with the 4G63 for easy, reliable power for sure.

Ahhh. The good old DSM days. If I were retired I would consider a first gen to toy with. I don't have time to mess with one now.

I always wanted a Datsun 510 with a with a SR20 in it. Only Nissan I ever cared for.

 

[optronix]

16G was stock in the Evo. The early 00s were without question much better than the 90s. DSMs took a ton of work comparatively to an Evo.

The Evo had power, handling, and braking on another planet compared to a DSM. On track especially. Back to drag racing, high 11s with a full exhaust and tune (and race gas) was all it took in an Evo.

The SR20 can’t compete with the 4G63 for easy, reliable power for sure.

Bro I had a 2G Talon lol. And yes, I broke a driveshaft in it, stock.

It probably had crankwalk (like it's some sort of disease lol).

 

[Noize]

Bro I had a 2G Talon lol. And yes, I broke a driveshaft in it, stock.

It probably had crankwalk (like it's some sort of disease lol).

You won’t get an argument from me that DSM‘s were junk. The SR20 was just moreso, and can’t make nearly as much reliable power with stock internals.

The 4G63 did not get good until 1998. Once they worked out the bugs of their first pull type clutch in 1997 Evo IV, crankwalk was a thing if the past. Evo V up are great.

Sadly, the US did not inherit that engine or a strong transmission until Evo VIII, so DSMs remained poor.

 

[chopsuey34]

It's an embarrassment of riches for an enthusiast right now. With electrification on the product roadmap for all manufacturers, it's impressive the ICE options that are still available and many with manual transmissions. I honestly didn't think we'd be here. It feels like the 90s/early 2000s right now with all the options. There are as much, if not more, options for enthusiasts.

Agreed, there are still plenty of manual enthusiast cars to choose from in the sub $50k-ish range: Si, CTR, Type S, GTI, Golf R, Jetta GLI, WRX, BRZ/GR86, GR Corolla, tried and true Miata, Kia N products, new Mustangs, Challengers, Minis, Nissan Z, Manual Supra.

The only segment that is squeezed out of manual transmissions is the luxury segment: BMWs are M-only, no Audis, no Mercedes, Cadillac Blackwings, and of course, Porsche.

It aint the 90's anymore, but there's still a ton of stuff out there. Not a golden age, but a renaissance or maybe a bronze/silver age.

Sponsored