Misha Charoudin at the Ring in a stock FL5

[Zeke01]

Nice!

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[WOPSiWOT]

An absolute burner. He was also in individual mode so didn’t have traction defeated. In the video he doesn’t understand why traction is intervening a few times. That is why.

 

[BigBird]

An absolute burner. He was also in individual mode so didn’t have traction defeated. In the video he doesn’t understand why traction is intervening a few times. That is why.

he says at the end he nor the owner knew how to do defeat TC, i.e. pedal dance.

 

[MooMoo]

To fully defeat TC you either need a PHD or be a kid that played Mortal Kombat back in the 90s

 

[WOPSiWOT]

To fully defeat TC you either need a PHD or be a kid that played Mortal Kombat back in the 90s

Or just put in +R and long press of VSA. When I had Si I just kept steps for defeating traction written on a note on back of Sun visor.

 

[svvitch]

To fully defeat TC you either need a PHD or be a kid that played Mortal Kombat back in the 90s

I know it's likely a different controller board/network, but I would love to be able to do this automagically from a Hondata program button or something.

 

[RacingManiac]

+R and Long hold VSC button definitely works, pedal dance does too but also takes the whatever brake torque vectoring and some brake assisted front LSD action out.

Its still baffling to me that Honda sells a performance oriented "track capable" car with inadequate cooling...

 

[optronix]

+R and Long hold VSC button definitely works, pedal dance does too but also takes the whatever brake torque vectoring and some brake assisted front LSD action out.

Its still baffling to me that Honda sells a performance oriented "track capable" car with inadequate cooling...

You nailed it though- "track capable". It's not a Porsche GT product, it's still a Civic with some go-fast parts.

And admittedly some very good engineering- BUT it is still to at least some degree built to a price point so there will inevitably be some corners cut. Cooling seems to be the most noticeable.

 

[RacingManiac]

Coming from working at GM, after the C7 Z06 debacle, most of the GM Performance products(1LEs, Corvette Z51+, Blackwings) are all basically track rated out of the box on stock parts. You might see elevated brake wear but they are going to survive a track day on stock tires. I sit in my cube and I can hear them pound ZR1 or other cars around Milford Road Course every week.

We are living in an age where Hyundai Ioniq 5N can be driven around the ring for 2 laps, mostly at speed, for an EV, a Type R can't manage its temp properly is pretty laughable, and annoying for owners...

 

[ABPDE5]

You nailed it though- "track capable". It's not a Porsche GT product, it's still a Civic with some go-fast parts.

And admittedly some very good engineering- BUT it is still to at least some degree built to a price point so there will inevitably be some corners cut. Cooling seems to be the most noticeable.

And, to be fair, it was essentially fine completing a very aggressive lap in the hands of an extremely skilled driver. What percentage of FL5s actually get tracked this hard? 0.1%? The overwhelming majority never see a track. They are just used as budget street "trophy" cars.

Honda understands this and produces a product that caters to its audience. Sure, everyone would prefer a more capable solution. And, there are enthusiasts on this forum that are pushing the limits of the platform that frequent forum goers see feedback from regularly, but keep in mind that: (i) these are the 0.1% (most owners aren't even on here); (ii) people are already fretting about the price, and dealers are starting to have a hard time moving this car.

If the FL5 started at 52k, and the DE5 started at 60k, but they had substantially better cooling, etc., do you think they'd sell more cars? It would be roundly mocked and a sales failure (even if it was viewed retroactively as an enthusiast darling). It's just the reality.

This car competes with the GRC, Golf R, and EN -- all of which face issues when tracked seriously in stock form (and Honda's variants are already the most expensive). They are compromised, performance trim, economy platforms at heart (albeit fantastic ones).

I don't think there's an issue with the FL5 as offered... I think there's an issue with the fantasy of "Type-R = racecar", in part because media / reviewers frame it that way. It is not a track car. It is a 4 door FWD hatchback that is fun to drive, gives great sports-car-feel, and can be taken to the track for a fun time in stock form on occasion.

 

[hhkb]

And, to be fair, it was essentially fine completing a very aggressive lap in the hands of an extremely skilled driver. What percentage of FL5s actually get tracked this hard? 0.1%? The overwhelming majority never see a track. They are just used as budget street "trophy" cars.

Honda understands this and produces a product that caters to its audience. Sure, everyone would prefer a more capable solution. And, there are enthusiasts on this forum that are pushing the limits of the platform that frequent forum goers see feedback from regularly, but keep in mind that: (i) these are the 0.1% (most owners aren't even on here); (ii) people are already fretting about the price, and dealers are starting to have a hard time moving this car.

If the FL5 started at 52k, and the DE5 started at 60k, but they had substantially better cooling, etc., do you think they'd sell more cars? It would be roundly mocked and a sales failure (even if it was viewed retroactively as an enthusiast darling). It's just the reality.

This car competes with the GRC, Golf R, and EN -- all of which face issues when tracked seriously in stock form (and Honda's variants are already the most expensive). They are compromised, performance trim, economy platforms at heart (albeit fantastic ones).

I don't think there's an issue with the Fl5 as offered... I think there's an issue with the fantasy of "Type-R = racecar", in part because media / reviewers frame it that way. It is not a track car. It is a 4 door FWD hatchback that is fun to drive, gives great sports-car-feel, and can be taken to the track for a fun time in stock form on occasion.

The press release here has several mentions of the car being “track-ready”. I’m a bit torn between my stance within this debate.

I track the car but haven’t had any cooling issues. I’m also a novice, not driving the car at its absolute limits lap after lap. I’ve never had cooling issues. I’m even using stock brake fluid and pads (which I do have to upgrade…).

I will say this: the car is like 95% perfect. Just upgrade the brake fluid, pads, and perhaps upgrade the cooling a bit then you have what everyone here seems to be desiring in a Civic that can be tracked.

 

[MooMoo]

I haven't heard anything about the EN overheating at track and its what 10k cheaper. The GR yes, its even worst than the civic with the rear diff which I can't believe has not been figured out yet.

The problem is not fast or slow driver, its true that most of us can go to the ring and won't ever overheat the FL5, I mean look at all the journos that had the car, no one ever said anything about this. The problem is hot climates, if its over 100 out even a slower driver might come close to or overheat the car. I have seen temps of 270 in a cool day under my slow ass, imagine was 100 out.

 

[BigBird]

I haven't heard anything about the EN overheating at track and its what 10k cheaper. The GR yes, its even worst than the civic with the rear diff which I can't believe has not been figured out yet.

The problem is not fast or slow driver, its true that most of us can go to the ring and won't ever overheat the FL5, I mean look at all the journos that had the car, no one ever said anything about this. The problem is hot climates, if its over 100 out even a slower driver might come close to or overheat the car. I have seen temps of 270 in a cool day under my slow ass, imagine was 100 out.

I had a EN and the oil temps do get high, but it doesn't trip any codes. It's pretty much track ready out the box. IMHO, a tuned DCT EN will be faster than a FL5.

I also did have my FL5 in 95F at time attack pace and it didn't overheat and never went into limp mode (well except when I ran low on fuel). IAT were definitely a problem, but that's almost any stock intercooler boosted car

EDIT: FL5 was also tuned at the time

 

[optronix]

Ok I haven't watched the video; I'll very likely never drive any car at the 'ring let alone ship my DE5 over there so admittedly I don't have a ton of interest in watching a full video of how its cousin does on the 'ring. This is my caveat for not having the full context of what we're even talking about here...

But honestly, who is ACTUALLY experiencing consistent overheating issues on track?

And then a follow-up question- do you have an aftermarket intercooler?

Reason for asking is I, like many folks who post here regularly, spend a fair amount of time on these forums, DISCUSSING things like track driving without actually DOING said things.

Of all the time I've spent on these forums, the only times I can actually recall people discussing true overheating issues, there was an aftermarket intercooler involved.

There may be a handful of folks who are either a) extreme track rats that push these cars to their absolute limits (in which case there are often aftermarket parts involved), or b) at the track on a very hot day- or likely any combination of the two.

All of these things considered, I think a ~$50k "track capable" car that only overheats under these conditions is an acceptable compromise.

edit- I don't really care too much about GM either because they've had plenty of history of producing "track capable" cars that had terminal issues, whether it was track driving or something else (i.e., anecdotally I just witnessed a "new-ish" Camaro SS lose oil pressure and implode its engine during an autocross a couple weeks ago. It was stock and had 22k miles). Even if their current inventory of products are amazing track machines, I personally don't factor that into my decision-making.

 

[superporpoise]

Honda really should’ve improved cooling with the FL5. It was the biggest issue on the FK8 and they chose to do… almost nothing.

I had an Elantra N before my FL5 and that car had zero issues on track. If I ever bought another FWD car to daily/track it would honestly be an EN.

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