Manual Transmission Feel

[optronix]

Aside from shifter feel, how does the DE5 compare to F87C? Getting my FK8 upgrade list ready and I’d be lying in if told you the M2 Comp doesn’t interest me. The FL5/DE5 are top contenders (likely what I will get) as well.

TwistedLogik's assessment is a great, reasonable response that is useful. Whoever the "Yaris" guy is spit out a bunch of hyperbole that is completely useless.

What you're going to want to do is go on as long of a test drive as possible in each car, and really assess what you want out of your next car. The steering is really the big shortcoming in all the electric-rack M cars, but there's a "character" element there that really has to be experienced... and unfortunately it probably won't reveal itself completely on city streets.

Another thing I'd strongly recommend if you can swing it is heading out to South Carolina for one of their BMW Performance Center events. Yes it will be in the latest G model cars but the overall sensations will be similar to what we're talking about with the F87, and you'll get to experience it to the fullest extent possible. (You'll want to keep in mind that the G87 is insanely fast, significantly faster than the F87C, arguably too fast to ever be used on the street. One thing no one can argue with is BMW M engines, they're really pretty much masterpieces for what they are)

I think it would be worth it for two reasons- a) the BMW Performance Center is ALWAYS a fucking blast, and b) as TwistedLogik says, prices are just going up and up and you're really going to want to know you want an F87 because it won't be cheap (probably more expensive than a DE5), and knowing how volatile the market is you could easily lose a couple grand if you chose to move on from it in a couple years or less.

But you owe it to yourself to give it a fair shot. The F87, in many people's eyes, is the last of the truly good BMWs.

Sponsored

 

[007]

TwistedLogik's assessment is a great, reasonable response that is useful. Whoever the "Yaris" guy is spit out a bunch of hyperbole that is completely useless.

First of all, if you think someone’s personal experience with a car is “useless,” you’re missing the entire point of these discussions. Just because you don’t like what someone says doesn’t invalidate it. Not every car fits everyone’s taste, and the F87 M2C is the perfect example of that. If someone already made up his mind that he wants one, he’ll dismiss any criticism and look for feedback that strokes his confirmation bias.

Let’s get something straight: the M2C shifter feel, gear engagement, and clutch action are nowhere near decent. Calling them sloppy is me being kind. The fact that BMW’s been recycling the same garbage shifter since the E46 era is ridiculous. And if someone thinks the M2C has a great shifter feel, they’ve probably never driven something with real feedback and precision. You can dress it up all you want, but it's a numb, heavy, and disconnected experience that leaves a lot to be desired.

Now, as for calling my experience with the GR Yaris “hyperbole,” I doubt you even bothered to read what I said. You don’t have to agree with me, but dismissing it just shows how narrow your view is. There are plenty of people out there who are looking for balanced, honest takes on cars to help them make up their own minds. Telling them everything they read that doesn’t fit your narrative is useless? That’s laughable. Here’s an idea: instead of asking people how something feels, which is highly subjective, OP should go test drive the car himself. It’s the only way he’ll know if it fits his tastes.

The reality is the F87 M2C is not everybody’s cup of tea. To me, it’s one of the most soulless M cars BMW has ever made, and I can only imagine the G87 M2 isn’t far behind. Maybe he’ll love it, maybe he won’t. But comparing it to cars like the Type R or an old M car is a losing battle because BMW hasn’t delivered anything remotely close to that level of engagement in years - arguably since the e9x era.

And if someone’s never driven a real BMW M car from back in the day, then they’re in no position to understand what people like me are talking about. Same goes for the old Type R crowd who say the new FL5 feels disconnected compared to the past. Context matters, and so does reference point. For me, modern cars like the GR Yaris or even the Type R feel more like old-school M cars than anything BMW has made in years.

So, before you write off my take as useless, maybe realize that there are plenty of people who actually value these kinds of perspectives to decide if a car is right for them. Not every opinion will line up with yours, but that doesn’t make it “hyperbole.” That just makes you close-minded.

 

[007]

Too many issues with the E92. The F generation is where BMW at least finally decided they'd make cars intended to last beyond the warranty period.

The sound of the S65 is amazing though especially with the right aftermarket intake/exhaust but it will almost certainly grenade itself in due time.

You’re making the S55 sound like it’s bulletproof, which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s far from it. Crank hub failures, charge cooler issues, and gasket leaks are well-known problems. Let’s not forget cracked brake pistons, diff leaks, faulty sensors, and the infamous radiator, water pump, and thermostat leaks—just to name a few.

Sure, you could argue that crank hub failures aren’t as common as the rod bearing disasters on the E46 or E9X M3s, but that’s splitting hairs. Failure is failure, and it doesn’t take much to wreck the engine.

A coworker with a 2008 E92 M3 racked up over 150k miles—rod bearings never touched, and guess what? No problems. He follows a strict warm-up routine and changes his oil religiously, and he drives the thing like he stole it. So, maybe it’s less about “inevitable failure” and more about how the car is treated.

As for the S58, one could argue it’s the most reliable M engine to date, but the jury’s still out. These kinds of problems take years to rear their ugly heads, so we can’t start calling it flawless just yet.

 

[MooMoo]

You’re making the S55 sound like it’s bulletproof, which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s far from it. Crank hub failures, charge cooler issues, and gasket leaks are well-known problems. Let’s not forget cracked brake pistons, diff leaks, faulty sensors, and the infamous radiator, water pump, and thermostat leaks—just to name a few.

Sure, you could argue that crank hub failures aren’t as common as the rod bearing disasters on the E46 or E9X M3s, but that’s splitting hairs. Failure is failure, and it doesn’t take much to wreck the engine.

A coworker with a 2008 E92 M3 racked up over 150k miles—rod bearings never touched, and guess what? No problems. He follows a strict warm-up routine and changes his oil religiously, and he drives the thing like he stole it. So, maybe it’s less about “inevitable failure” and more about how the car is treated.

As for the S58, one could argue it’s the most reliable M engine to date, but the jury’s still out. These kinds of problems take years to rear their ugly heads, so we can’t start calling it flawless just yet.

Crank hub failure is very rare and specially if car is not tuned. The s55 is a very reliable engine, of course there are issues, every car has em but you cant compare the crank hub issue to rod bearings on s65.

Don’t forger that the s55 has been around since 2016, the problems are out man, there is no more lets wait it out to see… people put there with 150k and more and overall the consensus is the S55 is excellent.

I agree that the bmw shifter is crap but the zhp knob is fantastic and this is why they keep using it. The steering is no type R but when you push the m2 it will put a smile on your face, the car wants to fight you but its very easy to keep it composed, its a riot. Nothing like tossing it sideways, really the only thing I miss with the type R.

since yall posted some
M2 pictures, got me all tear eyed. Here is some of mine…

 

[007]

Crank hub failure is very rare and specially if car is not tuned. The s55 is a very reliable engine, of course there are issues, every car has em but you cant compare the crank hub issue to rod bearings on s65.

Don’t forger that the s55 has been around since 2016, the problems are out man, there is no more lets wait it out to see… people put there with 150k and more and overall the consensus is the S55 is excellent.

I agree that the bmw shifter is crap but the zhp knob is fantastic and this is why they keep using it. The steering is no type R but when you push the m2 it will put a smile on your face, the car wants to fight you but its very easy to keep it composed, its a riot. Nothing like tossing it sideways, really the only thing I miss with the type R.

since yall posted some
M2 pictures, got me all tear eyed. Here is some of mine…

I mostly agree with what you said, but S65 rod bearing failures aren’t necessarily more common than crank hub failures on the S55. How many S65 or S54 engines have you personally seen fail from rod bearings in the last two decades? Between my colleagues and me (with at least a dozen of those cars), not a single one. Internet forums love to blow things out of proportion, and while I’m not saying the S55 is a bad engine, let’s not act like the issues outlined are unicorns.

And for the record, what you refer to as my “let's wait it out to see” comment wasn’t directed at the S55, but at the S58. It’s still too early to make any sweeping judgments about it.

As I mentioned before, the F87 M2C is a stunning car and undeniably fast—especially compared to econoboxes like the GR Yaris and Type R. Truly night and day in acceleration. I’m not denying that raw speed and effortless power slides are fun for some people. But it all comes down to priorities. What’s fun to one person isn’t necessarily fun to someone else. For me, anything over 3,400 lbs isn’t fun. Even the E92 felt too heavy, and the E46 M3 was already pushing it in terms of weight. Lightweight cars dominate when it comes to agility, and combining that with great steering feedback and responsiveness is what makes a car truly fun in my book.

And just to be clear, I’m not here to convince anyone to steer clear of the M2C. I’m just sharing my own experience. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Tw1stedlog1k]

On the subject of the BMWs (including the G87), I think we're all in agreement that they're a far cry from the Hondas. Just "ok" at best.

Since we were talking P cars, I owned a 996 Cab for a brief period of time and that was a stellar car when it ran. For a forgotten and tired 20 year old (at the time) car, that thing was engaging to drive and all the inputs were fantastic. It's been about 5 years now but I clearly recall the shift action being pleasantly weighted, satisfyingly notchy, and throws were *just* short enough. Out of curiosity, I even went as far as installing a generic short shifter kit from Pelican Parts just to see if it could be improved upon. The shift experience afterwards is ingrained in me and I'm still chasing that high to this day.

Anyway, I agree the Honda transmissions are great out of the box. Personally, I feel they can only get better as I continue chasing mods to get closer to my 996 experience.

 

[VarmintCong]

Let’s get something straight: the M2C shifter feel, gear engagement, and clutch action are nowhere near decent. Calling them sloppy is me being kind. The fact that BMW’s been recycling the same garbage shifter since the E46 era is ridiculous. And if someone thinks the M2C has a great shifter feel, they’ve probably never driven something with real feedback and precision. You can dress it up all you want, but it's a numb, heavy, and disconnected experience that leaves a lot to be desired.

I loved the shifter in my 2004 330i ZHP, if it's the same shift feel I'd be cool with that. I didn't find my 2020 Si's shifter superior, just different. BMW shifters don't like to be rushed.

 

[007]

On the subject of the BMWs (including the G87), I think we're all in agreement that they're a far cry from the Hondas. Just "ok" at best.

Since we were talking P cars, I owned a 996 Cab for a brief period of time and that was a stellar car when it ran. For a forgotten and tired 20 year old (at the time) car, that thing was engaging to drive and all the inputs were fantastic. It's been about 5 years now but I clearly recall the shift action being pleasantly weighted, satisfyingly notchy, and throws were *just* short enough. Out of curiosity, I even went as far as installing a generic short shifter kit from Pelican Parts just to see if it could be improved upon. The shift experience afterwards is ingrained in me and I'm still chasing that high to this day.

Anyway, I agree the Honda transmissions are great out of the box. Personally, I feel they can only get better as I continue chasing mods to get closer to my 996 experience.

I agree that the BMW shifting experience can be dramatically improved with an aftermarket shifter. Over the years, I’ve used quite a few in my older M cars, as it was really the only way to resolve the inherently sloppy shifting feel. These cars were quite engaging and fun to drive, but the stock shifters always left something to be desired. I tried UUC, but it fell short of expectations. The real game changer for me was the Autosolutions shifter, which I installed in various configurations—30%, 20%, and 0% reduction. Surprisingly, the 0% reduction ended up being the most reliable, as it caused the fewest lockouts. Even though the throw wasn’t as short as the 30%, it still felt like a massive improvement over stock. The only downside was the installation process—by far the most frustrating and complex I’ve ever dealt with, in any area.

 

[MooMoo]

I mostly agree with what you said, but S65 rod bearing failures aren’t necessarily more common than crank hub failures on the S55. How many S65 or S54 engines have you personally seen fail from rod bearings in the last two decades? Between my colleagues and me (with at least a dozen of those cars), not a single one. Internet forums love to blow things out of proportion, and while I’m not saying the S55 is a bad engine, let’s not act like the issues outlined are unicorns.

And for the record, what you refer to as my “let's wait it out to see” comment wasn’t directed at the S55, but at the S58. It’s still too early to make any sweeping judgments about it.

As I mentioned before, the F87 M2C is a stunning car and undeniably fast—especially compared to econoboxes like the GR Yaris and Type R. Truly night and day in acceleration. I’m not denying that raw speed and effortless power slides are fun for some people. But it all comes down to priorities. What’s fun to one person isn’t necessarily fun to someone else. For me, anything over 3,400 lbs isn’t fun. Even the E92 felt too heavy, and the E46 M3 was already pushing it in terms of weight. Lightweight cars dominate when it comes to agility, and combining that with great steering feedback and responsiveness is what makes a car truly fun in my book.

And just to be clear, I’m not here to convince anyone to steer clear of the M2C. I’m just sharing my own experience. Different strokes for different folks.

I don't know anyone that has had RB issues on the e9x because literally all of them have done their RB. The S55 the majority of people have not pinned the crank hub, specially stock people. Although it has definitely happened in stock form it really is not very common.

I do agree with you that the S65 is not that bad though, I would totally run one but I would side with caution and do the RB as preventive.

I agree with weight, the Type R definitely feels lighter than the M2C but I would not say its night and day. Numbers are just numbers and BMW is really good at hiding the weight of its cars, of course consumables numbers can't lie.

I don't think everyone has to love the M2C and I sold mine so obviously I was ready to move on but I still think for what that car is its excellent, its super fun but its too much for the street, you don't get to really have fun with it compared to the Type R, its kinda boring really. On track its a different story

 

[007]

I don't know anyone that has had RB issues on the e9x because literally all of them have done their RB. The S55 the majority of people have not pinned the crank hub, specially stock people. Although it has definitely happened in stock form it really is not very common.

I do agree with you that the S65 is not that bad though, I would totally run one but I would side with caution and do the RB as preventive.

I agree with weight, the Type R definitely feels lighter than the M2C but I would not say its night and day. Numbers are just numbers and BMW is really good at hiding the weight of its cars, of course consumables numbers can't lie.

I don't think everyone has to love the M2C and I sold mine so obviously I was ready to move on but I still think for what that car is its excellent, its super fun but its too much for the street, you don't get to really have fun with it compared to the Type R, its kinda boring really. On track its a different story

Yeah, I get it. My ‘night and day’ comment was really about the acceleration differences between the two. Like you mentioned, the M2C was simply too fast for my taste, which meant I could almost never enjoy it anywhere near its limit on the street.

As for the weight difference, that’s where it can get subjective. People who don’t push their cars hard on a daily basis might not notice much. But for those of us who do—and I’m definitely one of them—the extra ~500 lbs on the M2C compared to the Type R is impossible to ignore. The gap is even more pronounced with my GR Yaris, which is nearly 800 lbs lighter. That’s a huge difference in my world, and you can really feel it in how responsive and snappy the car is. Driving them back to back, the M2C can feel like a tank.

Sure, manufacturers have done wonders with new suspension tech to mask the weight, like with the GTR. But heavy is heavy, and physics don’t lie—you can’t fully hide that bulk. Then again, plenty of people don’t care how heavy cars have gotten, and they continue to buy and rave about modern M cars. If that’s what they’re into, then I’m happy for them.

 

[MooMoo]

Yeah, I get it. My ‘night and day’ comment was really about the acceleration differences between the two. Like you mentioned, the M2C was simply too fast for my taste, which meant I could almost never enjoy it anywhere near its limit on the street.

As for the weight difference, that’s where it can get subjective. People who don’t push their cars hard on a daily basis might not notice much. But for those of us who do—and I’m definitely one of them—the extra ~500 lbs on the M2C compared to the Type R is impossible to ignore. The gap is even more pronounced with my GR Yaris, which is nearly 800 lbs lighter. That’s a huge difference in my world, and you can really feel it in how responsive and snappy the car is. Driving them back to back, the M2C can feel like a tank.

Sure, manufacturers have done wonders with new suspension tech to mask the weight, like with the GTR. But heavy is heavy, and physics don’t lie—you can’t fully hide that bulk. Then again, plenty of people don’t care how heavy cars have gotten, and they continue to buy and rave about modern M cars. If that’s what they’re into, then I’m happy for them.

I can feel the difference on technical sections of a track, I mean we are talking 300lbs btw type R and M2C and you can easily drop a good amount of weight on the M2 (wheels and exhaust but yes the weight over the front axle will still be way more than the typeR). On a fast less technical track then the difference goes away to me but I think I might just not be so sensitive to this compared to others. I think on a car thats 800lbs that is a huge difference and will be immediately apparent.

I have drive a g80 and not going to lie, they really did a good job masking the weight on that thing, its a pig but did not feel like it at times, driving that back to back to m5 on the track then the weight was very apparent but going f87 to g80 was actually surprising. That said the g80 was even more digital feeling than the f87, the thing had zero feedback, not a car for me but I get why some like them

Yaris seems awesome, I wish we got that here in the US, the corolla is cool but when there is a yaris I think thats the one to have.

 

[007]

I can feel the difference on technical sections of a track, I mean we are talking 300lbs btw type R and M2C and you can easily drop a good amount of weight on the M2 (wheels and exhaust but yes the weight over the front axle will still be way more than the typeR). On a fast less technical track then the difference goes away to me but I think I might just not be so sensitive to this compared to others. I think on a car thats 800lbs that is a huge difference and will be immediately apparent.

I have drive a g80 and not going to lie, they really did a good job masking the weight on that thing, its a pig but did not feel like it at times, driving that back to back to m5 on the track then the weight was very apparent but going f87 to g80 was actually surprising. That said the g80 was even more digital feeling than the f87, the thing had zero feedback, not a car for me but I get why some like them

Yaris seems awesome, I wish we got that here in the US, the corolla is cool but when there is a yaris I think thats the one to have.

Yeah, I guess it depends on the configuration and options. The F87 M2C is quoted at 3,640 lbs with the DCT and around 3,600 lbs without it. The FL5’s weight typically comes in at 3,188 lbs, so that’s a little over a 400 lb difference. As you mentioned, it’s not as much as the GR Yaris, but still a noticeable gap.

The weight difference was a big factor in my decision to replace the M2C. I wanted a fun, new car with a manual that falls into the same curb weight range as the S2000, E30 M3, and GR86 - all of which hover around 2,800 lbs - and was relatively affordable. I even considered a Miata, but unfortunately, I’m too tall for it.

 

[optronix]

There's a very good reason the GR Yaris is not available in the US. No one would buy it.

And if they did they'd be sure to let you know about it at every opportunity.

I feel like I always have to spell out when I'm being even slightly facetious on these boards. I am. But barely.

I think the GR Yaris is kind of cool, but honestly it could probably star in a movie called "Cars I don't care about". A) because we don't get it here, and B) it has 3 cylinders.

 

[007]

There's a very good reason the GR Yaris is not available in the US. No one would buy it.

And if they did they'd be sure to let you know about it at every opportunity.

I feel like I always have to spell out when I'm being even slightly facetious on these boards. I am. But barely.

I think the GR Yaris is kind of cool, but honestly it could probably star in a movie called "Cars I don't care about". A) because we don't get it here, and B) it has 3 cylinders.

Nah, you’re just a hater, probably in his teens by the sound of it. It’s not the first time you’ve spewed your toxic nonsense, and I’m sure it won’t be the last. Maybe if you grew a spine and moved abroad, you could finally own the cars you have a crush on instead of whining from the comfort of irrelevance.

 

[Acropora]

You’re making the S55 sound like it’s bulletproof, which couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s far from it. Crank hub failures, charge cooler issues, and gasket leaks are well-known problems. Let’s not forget cracked brake pistons, diff leaks, faulty sensors, and the infamous radiator, water pump, and thermostat leaks—just to name a few.

Sure, you could argue that crank hub failures aren’t as common as the rod bearing disasters on the E46 or E9X M3s, but that’s splitting hairs. Failure is failure, and it doesn’t take much to wreck the engine.

S55 is a great engine. RB on S65 is most likely to fail eventually. Crank hub on S55 is unlikely to happen on a stock car. These two issues are very different - it isn’t splitting hairs.

Sponsored