Manual Transmission Feel

[MooMoo]

Agreed on all points.... but the F87 is still a great car. If the inputs were just a slight bit better I would have found a way to justify having two less doors, because end of the day I do prefer rear-wheel drive in a sports car. But the FL5/DE5 just nails the inputs.

Including the clutch. I don't even know wtf we're talking about anymore. Are you guys driving the same car?

Why are we suddenly comparing to 911 S/Ts and Ferraris and shit?

lol yeah the conversation got out of hand real quick, surprised we not talking about the T50 lol

The F87 is a gem of a car, I do miss mine and mostly because at the end of the day I also prefer RWD in a sports car. I don't even needed the extra doors but wanted something different and the FL5 was perfect for that, different brand from different continent (have only had euro cars), fwd, 4 hatch (kinda), etc. I am not disappointed because the FL5 is great and in some ways better than my competition was but it will never be rwd + the S55 is a way better engine and thats that.

Goal is keep the FL5 and one day add a rwd car, what I really want is a Lotus Elise. Or sell the FL5 and get a GT4 if they ever become "affordable"

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[optronix]

lol yeah the conversation got out of hand real quick, surprised we not talking about the T50 lol

The F87 is a gem of a car, I do miss mine and mostly because at the end of the day I also prefer RWD in a sports car. I don't even needed the extra doors but wanted something different and the FL5 was perfect for that, different brand from different continent (have only had euro cars), fwd, 4 hatch (kinda), etc. I am not disappointed because the FL5 is great and in some ways better than my competition was but it will never be rwd + the S55 is a way better engine and thats that.

Every time I see an F87 or F80 I want one. I may just get one as a dedicated track car... but I also want a 997.

I need to get my money right.

 

[MooMoo]

Every time I see an F87 or F80 I want one. I may just get one as a dedicated track car... but I also want a 997.

I need to get my money right.

F generation looks amazing. If I was to buy again though I would probably get a OG vs a competition though, lighter and better sound but for a track car the competition is way better and sorted from factory.

E92 seem to be very popular as dedicated track cars, I think I would do that. Sound is just too good + the steering and at the track the lack of torque is not as important.

 

[optronix]

F generation looks amazing. If I was to buy again though I would probably get a OG vs a competition though, lighter and better sound but for a track car the competition is way better and sorted from factory.

E92 seem to be very popular as dedicated track cars, I think I would do that. Sound is just too good + the steering and at the track the lack of torque is not as important.

Too many issues with the E92. The F generation is where BMW at least finally decided they'd make cars intended to last beyond the warranty period.

The sound of the S65 is amazing though especially with the right aftermarket intake/exhaust but it will almost certainly grenade itself in due time.

 

[MooMoo]

Too many issues with the E92. The F generation is where BMW at least finally decided they'd make cars intended to last beyond the warranty period.

The sound of the S65 is amazing though especially with the right aftermarket intake/exhaust but it will almost certainly grenade itself in due time.

Yeah S65 has the rod bearings but apart from that its pretty bullet proof. I know a few people running them on track and we are talking 30+ track days a year. But I can agree F series will probably need even less attention.

 

[optronix]

Yeah S65 has the rod bearings but apart from that its pretty bullet proof. I know a few people running them on track and we are talking 30+ track days a year. But I can agree F series will probably need even less attention.

This is where I drew the line and decided I'll never do an E92; this channel's build series for this car is pretty good overall but this is the video where they try to understand what caused the catastrophic engine failure of their track car.

I think there should be some allowance for assuming the shop that did the rod bearings screwed something up, but that just more or less proves the point to just avoid the platform in the first place lol.

 

[Tw1stedlog1k]

Have owned an F87C from new for 3 years and 19k miles before having to switch off to my current DE5. Stock vs stock the inputs are much better on the DE5. Shifter feel is significantly improved along with a more linear clutch pedal engagement. However, the DE5 shifter is a bit light for my tastes, albeit buttery smooth. I feel the clutch pedal could use a little more resistance as well but it's overall quite superb for day to day driving.

Stock for stock, the DE5/FL5 blows the F87C out of the water, no doubt about it. Where it starts to get muddy is that I had modded the M2C with the MP shift knob, UCP, AutoSolutions SSK at 22.5% reduction and 95A bushings, and E90 slave cylinder. After all mods were said and done, I would rank the stock DE5 setup as much better, than the stock F87C but marginally worse than a modded F87C setup for feel. I currently have a modified slave cylinder and CMC damper bypass on my DE5 so clutch engagement is just as good, if not better, than on my modified F87C. Once I have a SSK on the DE5 (to increase the mechanical feel a bit more), I'm certain we'll be well beyond what a modified F87C can offer.

 

[optronix]

Have owned an F87C from new for 3 years and 19k miles before having to switch off to my current DE5. Stock vs stock the inputs are much better on the DE5. Shifter feel is significantly improved along with a more linear clutch pedal engagement. However, the DE5 shifter is a bit light for my tastes, albeit buttery smooth. I feel the clutch pedal could use a little more resistance as well but it's overall quite superb for day to day driving.

Stock for stock, the DE5/FL5 blows the F87C out of the water, no doubt about it. Where it starts to get muddy is that I had modded the M2C with the MP shift knob, UCP, AutoSolutions SSK at 22.5% reduction and 95A bushings, and E90 slave cylinder. After all mods were said and done, I would rank the stock DE5 setup as much better, than the stock F87C but marginally worse than a modded F87C setup for feel. I currently have a modified slave cylinder and CMC damper bypass on my DE5 so clutch engagement is just as good, if not better, than on my modified F87C. Once I have a SSK on the DE5 (to increase the mechanical feel a bit more), I'm certain we'll be well beyond what a modified F87C can offer.

That is good to know that having a good shifter feel is achievable in a BMW. But... I've heard great things about some of the aftermarket offerings for this platform too.

Personally, I think the shifter feel is just right. I kind of don't want to experience the aftermarket offerings in fear that I would end up doing it, because as of this moment I don't think it's necessary (i.e., "you don't know what you don't know", that's fine with me for now at least)

Also I'm not living that fast and furious life these days. If you just have to pound gears like you live life a quarter mile at a time, then maybe this isn't the best shifter in the world. I've grinded going into second during autocross more than once, sure... but it's not also like I couldn't attribute the mishaps to my own errors, and it definitely doesn't happen every time.

The thing about the clutch though- can't please everybody. This is by far the most forgiving and livable clutch I've ever had in any car, and again- if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. I'm not sure what else people want out of a damn clutch lol.

 

[ender_ong]

@optronix About the clutch feel for FL5/DE5, I suspect there are some that don’t like how the clutch engagement feels due to the combination of the effects of the clutch damper and the clutch delay valve; those two in combination (subjectively) take away from the directness of clutch engagement and, to a degree, disengagement, for the sake of drivetrain safety from clutch dumps. There are options on deleting both for a (supposedly) purer, unadulterated clutch feel (links below):

Clutch damper delete

Clutch delay valve delete

 

[MooMoo]

Have owned an F87C from new for 3 years and 19k miles before having to switch off to my current DE5. Stock vs stock the inputs are much better on the DE5. Shifter feel is significantly improved along with a more linear clutch pedal engagement. However, the DE5 shifter is a bit light for my tastes, albeit buttery smooth. I feel the clutch pedal could use a little more resistance as well but it's overall quite superb for day to day driving.

Stock for stock, the DE5/FL5 blows the F87C out of the water, no doubt about it. Where it starts to get muddy is that I had modded the M2C with the MP shift knob, UCP, AutoSolutions SSK at 22.5% reduction and 95A bushings, and E90 slave cylinder. After all mods were said and done, I would rank the stock DE5 setup as much better, than the stock F87C but marginally worse than a modded F87C setup for feel. I currently have a modified slave cylinder and CMC damper bypass on my DE5 so clutch engagement is just as good, if not better, than on my modified F87C. Once I have a SSK on the DE5 (to increase the mechanical feel a bit more), I'm certain we'll be well beyond what a modified F87C can offer.

I never got to put the auto solutions on the my comp but seems like a must install that will fix most of the issues with the shift feel. Its the best unless you go for a CAE (unless its a daily and the CAE will probably get annoying). I had the MP shift knob with the stock and was not a fan, way too light, it reduced input feeling for me but it definitely made the shifts feel shorter, maybe with the SSK it made it much better.

 

[Tw1stedlog1k]

That is good to know that having a good shifter feel is achievable in a BMW. But... I've heard great things about some of the aftermarket offerings for this platform too.

Personally, I think the shifter feel is just right. I kind of don't want to experience the aftermarket offerings in fear that I would end up doing it, because as of this moment I don't think it's necessary (i.e., "you don't know what you don't know", that's fine with me for now at least)

Also I'm not living that fast and furious life these days. If you just have to pound gears like you live life a quarter mile at a time, then maybe this isn't the best shifter in the world. I've grinded going into second during autocross more than once, sure... but it's not also like I couldn't attribute the mishaps to my own errors, and it definitely doesn't happen every time.

The thing about the clutch though- can't please everybody. This is by far the most forgiving and livable clutch I've ever had in any car, and again- if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. I'm not sure what else people want out of a damn clutch lol.

I should have prefaced my post with "the only reason the DE5 feels lacking in any way is really because of my experience with the improvements on my F87C." Otherwise it's really just as you say; "You don't know what you don't know." For our platform, I feel the slave cylinder mod and CMC bypass is necessary if you're a "feel" driver. If you're not noticing any concerns as-is, then the mods might not benefit your use at all.

I never got to put the auto solutions on the my comp but seems like a must install that will fix most of the issues with the shift feel. Its the best unless you go for a CAE (unless its a daily and the CAE will probably get annoying). I had the MP shift knob with the stock and was not a fan, way too light, it reduced input feeling for me but it definitely made the shifts feel shorter, maybe with the SSK it made it much better.

The MP knob is definitely lighter but the way it improved the shift experience was that the weight was much more centered and the mass is lower in the knob compared to the stock knob (which I preferred over the MP knob for in-hand feel). For me it improved (increased) the mechanical, notchy action between shifts a little bit.

 

[Importraceram]

Have owned an F87C from new for 3 years and 19k miles before having to switch off to my current DE5. Stock vs stock the inputs are much better on the DE5. Shifter feel is significantly improved along with a more linear clutch pedal engagement. However, the DE5 shifter is a bit light for my tastes, albeit buttery smooth. I feel the clutch pedal could use a little more resistance as well but it's overall quite superb for day to day driving.

Stock for stock, the DE5/FL5 blows the F87C out of the water, no doubt about it. Where it starts to get muddy is that I had modded the M2C with the MP shift knob, UCP, AutoSolutions SSK at 22.5% reduction and 95A bushings, and E90 slave cylinder. After all mods were said and done, I would rank the stock DE5 setup as much better, than the stock F87C but marginally worse than a modded F87C setup for feel. I currently have a modified slave cylinder and CMC damper bypass on my DE5 so clutch engagement is just as good, if not better, than on my modified F87C. Once I have a SSK on the DE5 (to increase the mechanical feel a bit more), I'm certain we'll be well beyond what a modified F87C can offer.

Aside from shifter feel, how does the DE5 compare to F87C? Getting my FK8 upgrade list ready and I’d be lying in if told you the M2 Comp doesn’t interest me. The FL5/DE5 are top contenders (likely what I will get) as well.

 

[Tw1stedlog1k]

Putting aside things like the exhaust and (lack of) adaptive suspension, the F87C is the less sharp of the two. Inputs are more direct and engaging on the Type R/S. Where the M2C shines is that it's a brute. You give up some sharpness on inputs but it makes up for that with a wall of power and a looser driving dynamic. It's not a super grippy car with fat tires out of the box (but still decently grippy) but it's not unwieldy either, if that makes sense. The car isn't going to violently step out on you unexpectedly or anything like that but it will go sideways almost on command. The allure of the M2C is that it's the hooligan of the BMW lineup; it's fun, fast, and loose. HOWEVER, it's hilariously excessive. You're not using the car's potential on day to day driving so unless you plan on tracking the car regularly, have some nice back roads to bomb and enjoy having to reign in the car, then consider the Honda cars instead.

The R/S are more focused cars and you can access their fun factor more regularly on daily drives in all environments. You're not winning stop light races against the local soccer moms but you'll have more fun through engagement, everyday.

Sure you could tune the R/S for more power and add some character to the exhaust with pops and burbles but there is a limit to how much power becomes useable (or even fun).

Looks are subjective but I can say that I absolutely loved and miss my M2C despite currently loving my DE5. My original plan was to have both cars but circumstances dictate that I only keep one. I've considered getting back into the platform some time in the future but prices have just been nuts.

 

[007]

I had the last of the 2021 M2 Competition and hated every minute of it. The relationship lasted all of 6 months. That’s saying something because I typically keep cars for ages.

The shifter was as sloppy and awful as my previous M cars like the E46 M3 and E36 M3. What drives me nuts about BMW is how they’ve been recycling the same f***ing shifter for decades. I mean, down to the exact knob that literally hasn’t changed in at least 20 years. It's the same lame ass knob introduced with the E46 ZHP, and somehow, it still shows up in the G87 M2!

Do they not listen? Has nobody told them that their shifters suck? I get it—there’s some reasoning behind the notchiness and slop, but come on.

What else... The steering? Numb. Like, 'please put me out of my misery' numb. I couldn’t deal with it. Sure, it’s a beautiful car, and yeah, it’s fast (especially compared to a stock FL5 or GRY/GRC), but it's just not as engaging as I wanted it to be. The M2 was also heavy, especially compared to something like the FL5 or GR Yaris, and I could definitely feel that weight in the corners. For context, the GR Yaris weighs the same as an S2000—let that sink in. That’s a near 800-pound difference, and trust me, it’s no small thing.

I’ve heard the G87 M2 is supposed to fix some of that numbness, but I’m done with BMW for good. They’ll never feel like the legends they used to be.

The only two modern cars I want parked in my garage are my GRY and an FL5 Type R. One down, one to go. They’re perfect together in my world—the best of AWD and FWD. And while the GR Yaris shifter isn’t as precise as the Type R’s, it’s still more mechanical and has shorter throws compared to anything BMW and others are putting out these days.

 

[geekatthewheel]

Hey all! thanks for the comments, I did enjoy how we wildly went off topic to cover other M cars and the S/T 911 (pictures please, I can change the thread name if necessary).

Having digested most of your comments I will try to explain my sensations jumping in and out of the M2C and FL5 day to day. The clutch on the fl5 is light, granted, but what I meant is that you can easily play on stop and go clutch only and NEVER stall it. Then when you press the throttle, the car reacts in a way according to your input, no hesitation, just faster or slower pull away. I truly enjoy that on day to day traffic.

Jump on the F87C and first you find yourself setting steering to sport plus in search of the honda feeling, but it is not the same. The clutch is harder but the timing of your release and throttle input are more critical, if you miss, the car moves violently back and forward and you look like a fool in a car you dont know how to drive. On the other hand, get the spot and timing well and fast clutch release feels great. The engine is a brute, the design is to my opinion best M in years and a light touch of the throttle makes the rear happily want to overtake you and it gives you a smile.

My question was around how that experience on gear + clutch + steering for Porsche GT cars, ferrari and new M cars. I am not asking to compare the cars as a whole.

Hopefully that helps!

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