🔴💊 Engine Oil Red Pill Thread: Only Post If You Have UOA - Official Honda Civic Type R K20C1 Engine Oil Analysis

[johnloov]

Ok this Blackstone result is pretty interesting.

This is API SP Motul 5w-30 Power 8100.

Ran 5 Track days and 3000 miles.

This is from my friend that is extremely aggressive at Laguna Seca with his FL5, Aggressive suspension, ~1.39 Laguna Seca time, dual oil coolers etc....

What we're confused about - maybe someone knows - How can moly be at 1 ppm ??!!! We requested blackstone to come back with an Answer.

Anyone got a VOA virgin oil analysis of Motul power 8100 5w30?

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[johnloov]

OPs Honda Ultimate Full Synthetic 0W20

This is the Virgin Oil Analysis, meaning this is a baseline of what the Oil looks like.

This is OPs Report from using the oil. You want to look at the cST Viscosity and SUS Viscosity numbers which are at the bottom. These values are important because it is showing how viscous the oil is and how much protection/lubrication the oil is providing the engine

You can see the base values have dropped. This means that the oil had thinned out and is no longer providing the expected lubrication for the engine.

SUS - 11.8 point drop : 60.3 to 48.5

cSt - 3.49 drop : 10.29 to 6.8

I have only used Amsoil Signature Series 5W30 and based on my reports the Viscosity drop values are nowhere near that range.

VOA for Amsoil SS 5W30 With my Report

SUS - 2.6 point drop : 59.3 to 56.7

cSt - 0.79 point drop 10.03 to 9.27

All oil will thin and SUS and cSt values will drop from a VOA simply because the oil is being used and degraded but you can see that with Amsoil the viscosity isnt degrading nowhere the same rate as Honda Ultimate 0W20. Amsoil 5W30 is still maintaining its baseline Viscosity ratings with minimal drop despite the high engine loads of track use. Degradation is minimal and the service interval can be pushed out more. I added 2,000 miles and did 3 track days so the Viscosity Ratings should be lower, but how low? Idk. Im waiting on the results

Another very important spec is the fuel dilution percentage. This is important because our cars are DI and there is always the case of blow by. Dont know fuel details by its bad oil going back into the engine. This is why people add oil catch cans. Unfortunately Blackstone doesn't test for fuel dilution they only guess, other Oil Analysis Companies can actually test for the fuel dilution.

If theres an oil that can mitigate fuel dilution (2% is within acceptable ranges) and still maintain the high Viscosity ratings with minnimal drop compared to the VOA than it would be truly the best oil for our cars

I was recommended Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 X4 because with Amsoil 5W30 the ~11 cSt rating doesnt have much wiggle room before it degrades to 0W20 levels which is whats going on. Getting one with a 12 cSt rating will give you more wiggle room so it stays in the XW-30 oil range of Viscosity before the Viscosity starts dropping.

Im going to use another company for a UOA to see what the fuel dilution rate is with the Amsoil in the car currently and then I'll try Mobile 1 ESP 0W-40x4.

I was warned against Amsoil 0W40, it'll offer good protection but because its designed to be have extended service intervals, it has alot of detergents and because our cars are sensitive to fuel dilution because of the turbo abd DI there's a possibility it'll increase carbon intake and fuel dilution. Because our cars have a turbo and are DI there are some extra considerations.

Either way the best oil is the one that has high cSt Viscosity ratings, maintains its Viscosity ratings with minimal drop off and has the lowest fuel dilution. Honda Ultimate 0W20 is not that oil

This is a good database of VOA for a bunch of oils

I checked that site also, the Honda Ultimate Full Synthetic looks incorrect here. I recently got it tested at a 7.99 CST at 100C. 10 is like a 5w-30. Check my VOA at top - thanks

 

[johnloov]

OPs Honda Ultimate Full Synthetic 0W20

This is the Virgin Oil Analysis, meaning this is a baseline of what the Oil looks like.

This is OPs Report from using the oil. You want to look at the cST Viscosity and SUS Viscosity numbers which are at the bottom. These values are important because it is showing how viscous the oil is and how much protection/lubrication the oil is providing the engine

You can see the base values have dropped. This means that the oil had thinned out and is no longer providing the expected lubrication for the engine.

SUS - 11.8 point drop : 60.3 to 48.5

cSt - 3.49 drop : 10.29 to 6.8

I have only used Amsoil Signature Series 5W30 and based on my reports the Viscosity drop values are nowhere near that range.

VOA for Amsoil SS 5W30 With my Report

SUS - 2.6 point drop : 59.3 to 56.7

cSt - 0.79 point drop 10.03 to 9.27

All oil will thin and SUS and cSt values will drop from a VOA simply because the oil is being used and degraded but you can see that with Amsoil the viscosity isnt degrading nowhere the same rate as Honda Ultimate 0W20. Amsoil 5W30 is still maintaining its baseline Viscosity ratings with minimal drop despite the high engine loads of track use. Degradation is minimal and the service interval can be pushed out more. I added 2,000 miles and did 3 track days so the Viscosity Ratings should be lower, but how low? Idk. Im waiting on the results

Another very important spec is the fuel dilution percentage. This is important because our cars are DI and there is always the case of blow by. Dont know fuel details by its bad oil going back into the engine. This is why people add oil catch cans. Unfortunately Blackstone doesn't test for fuel dilution they only guess, other Oil Analysis Companies can actually test for the fuel dilution.

If theres an oil that can mitigate fuel dilution (2% is within acceptable ranges) and still maintain the high Viscosity ratings with minnimal drop compared to the VOA than it would be truly the best oil for our cars

I was recommended Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 X4 because with Amsoil 5W30 the ~11 cSt rating doesnt have much wiggle room before it degrades to 0W20 levels which is whats going on. Getting one with a 12 cSt rating will give you more wiggle room so it stays in the XW-30 oil range of Viscosity before the Viscosity starts dropping.

Im going to use another company for a UOA to see what the fuel dilution rate is with the Amsoil in the car currently and then I'll try Mobile 1 ESP 0W-40x4.

I was warned against Amsoil 0W40, it'll offer good protection but because its designed to be have extended service intervals, it has alot of detergents and because our cars are sensitive to fuel dilution because of the turbo abd DI there's a possibility it'll increase carbon intake and fuel dilution. Because our cars have a turbo and are DI there are some extra considerations.

Either way the best oil is the one that has high cSt Viscosity ratings, maintains its Viscosity ratings with minimal drop off and has the lowest fuel dilution. Honda Ultimate 0W20 is not that oil

This is a good database of VOA for a bunch of oils

I've also looked at that site and the data looks incorrect at 10.29 cst at 100c.

First, indicator that it is possibly incorrect is that, 10.29 is a 5w/30 weight oil.

The typical viscosity range for 0W-20 oil at 100°C, measured in centistokes (cSt), is:

6.9 cSt to 9.3 cSt at 100°C

SAE Grade	Viscosity at 100°C (cSt)

0W-20

6.9 to 9.3

You would be correct, that going from 10.29 cst to 6 would be bad, but we already have the same exact oil lab tested below. The 10.29 cst is incorrect data online. The Honda Ultimate 0w20 came back from the lab at a 7.99 CST at 100c.

Here are the typical ranges:

To ensure the most accurate results:

We lab tested the VOA ( Virgin Oil Analysis ) of the Honda Ultimate 0W-20 full synthetic and it's at 7.99 CST at 100c.

When you are looking to compare results, check out the lab results of the virgin sample first, then second, compare it to the used oil sample from the same lab, and same oil batch - tested together - for best accuracy. Sometimes oil formulas do change through the year - without notice to customers.

For this test - it was sent in at the same exact time, to the same exact lab, from the same exact batch of oil -- to ensure we are controlling the variables.

There is only a ~1 CST reduction based on the exact same oil tested before and after 2-3 track days.

And Aluminum is at now 5ppm showing it is protecting the engine very very well. The wear metals are the ultimate truth and validator.

Hope that helps,

Good questions

 

[johnloov]

Ok this Blackstone result is pretty interesting.

This is API SP Motul 5w-30 Power 8100.

Ran 5 Track days and 3000 miles.

This is from my friend that is extremely aggressive at Laguna Seca with his FL5, Aggressive suspension, ~1.39 Laguna Seca time, dual oil coolers etc....

What we're confused about - maybe someone knows - How can moly be at 1 ppm ??!!! We requested blackstone to come back with an Answer.

Anyone got a VOA virgin oil analysis of Motul power 8100 5w30?

Ok this Blackstone result is pretty interesting.

This is API SP Motul 5w-30 Power 8100.

Ran 5 Track days and 3000 miles.

This is from my friend that is extremely aggressive at Laguna Seca with his FL5, Aggressive suspension, ~1.39 Laguna Seca time, dual oil coolers etc....

What we're confused about - maybe someone knows - How can moly be at 1 ppm ??!!! We requested blackstone to come back with an Answer.

Anyone got a VOA virgin oil analysis of Motul power 8100 5w30?

Blackstone, called my friend back.

Looks like, ApI SP Motul Power 8100 doesn’t use. Moly, but protected the engine very well.

“ Motul 8100 is formulated without molybdenum. Boron, phosphorus, and zinc perform the same function though, so this is still perfectly good oil and it clearly worked well at keeping internal parts healthy.”

Very interesting... I've never seen an API SP engine oil without Moly, perform this good. Learned something new.

Remember look at the PPM of Aluminum and wear metals, to truly understand how well your oil is performing.

 

[johnloov]

Here is the latest video from oil expert Lake Speed Junior.

They test 1000's of samples, and thicker oil doesn't always correlate to better protection.

With some formula of oils, yes thicker is better, and some formulas it is not, and you most always will increase engine temps with thicker engine oils. Proven. With the GM recall, that's a last resort band-aid temporary fix to fix an engine defect. Also proves the frequency of oil changes, especially to remove the break in containments is critical.

The formula is critical, and to get verified lab results before believing those on the internet that are not lab testing the engine oils. ( You need ~3-4 oil change test in a row to get good data on the same oil on the same engine )

According to his lab that tests 100's of oils per week - "Thicker oil doesn't correlate to lower wear metals, and thicker oil does increase engine operating temperature. They've seen thicker oils run engines hotter tons of times on the dyno"

Lake Speed Junior " Don't put in a thicker viscosity engine oil into your engine blindly. If the data says it's better for your engine, then do it. But don't do it without data. Science not speculation."

You don't have to believe him, watch below, and you can comment on his channel if you disagree with him as an expert. Don't shoot the messenger either. Keep it scientific.



We are following the exact scientific procedure he is also recommending, by first using the current Honda 0W-20 Ultimate Full Synthetic engine oil, and getting it baselined, then we will move up to something different, and check if the wear metals are any better and the effect on engine temperatures on track.

We will be testing this methodically, and the aim is to protect the Type R engine, while trying to keep it from running too hot on stock setup.

Next the car is being shipped to Texas to run COTA May 10, 11 two more track days ( 3 track days in total Laguna Seca + 2 track days at COTA ) and we will drain the Honda Ultimate 0W-20 and see if the engine wear metals are the same.

If the engine wear metals are the same as last time, we have a baseline, then will move up to a thicker oil to see if there are any improvements.

 

[svvitch]

Change oil more frequently with your choice of brand and viscosity of full synthetic. I change after each track weekend. No amount of "data" and "research" and YouTube will change my mind lol.

 

[johnloov]

In general - That is scientifically correct - The data proves this also - that frequency of oil changes of an API SP Full Synthetic trumps a more expensive oil or thicker oil, with less frequency.

In general - that is the right thing to do to increase longevity and pull/flush contaminants out of the engine.

"All engine oils start to degrade after ~2000 miles" even without track use according to expert engine builder Takumi Kurosawa.

Our goal here is to be more precise and answer these questions and try to optimize for these variables on a stock engine:

1) Maximize OEM Operational Efficiency == Horsepower

2) Optimal OEM Cooling - As designed by Honda

3) Maximize Minimal Engine Wear

 

[AZCWTypeR]

Yes, thinner oils increase high rpm HP. But thicker oils provide superior film thickness at high load, low rpm situations. I rarely hit 4k rpm in daily driving, so I'm sticking with 5W-30.

I'm a retired engineer. I may still have journal bearing oil film thickness equations in a text book around the house.

 

[johnloov]

Yes, thinner oils increase high rpm HP. But thicker oils provide superior film thickness at high load, low rpm situations. I rarely hit 4k rpm in daily driving, so I'm sticking with 5W-30.

I'm a retired engineer. I may still have journal bearing oil film thickness equations in a text book around the house.

This in general is also true, depending on chemistry of the oil. Curious about your engineering opinion when you look at the data we collected on the Honda oil in the beginning of this tread. At 5ppm aluminum and the virgin sample shows 2ppm aluminum ( 3ppm wear over 3 track days, ~1000 miles), is that not extremely low wear after 3 track days? What do you read from that data?

I am also an engineer. Mostly an Electrical Engineering background but have studied mechanical engineering in-depth as well, and love to learn new things.

Curious Which 5w-30 are you using?

Also curious if anyone else has better lab results that show less wear.

Thank you

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